<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Suresh,<div><br></div><div>Sorry about that, but what do you mean? Can you elaborate a little bit? Was it humor, irony? Maybe you have a concrete idea for following up on Norbert's view - which I entirely agree with.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for being a bit more explicit.</div><div><br></div><div>JC</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>Le 10 déc. 2013 à 10:37, Suresh Ramasubramanian a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;"><div>If you find competent people for what he is advocating in civil society, then why sure. </div><div><br></div><div>--srs (htc one x) </div><br><div id="htc_header">----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Norbert Bollow" <<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch">nb@bollow.ch</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>Cc: "Jean-Christophe Nothias" <<a href="mailto:jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com">jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: [governance] All power should be in the hands of the engineers? (was Re: HLLM in LOndon - CS reps)<br>Date: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:58 PM</div></div><br><pre style="word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">In relation to Jean-Christophe's posting quoted below...
Those remarks of Alejandro Pisanty (who by the way is not only Chair of
ISOC Mexico, but also definitely an influential person in the global
technical community, for example he has served three terms as an ICANN
board member, and he is currently on ISOC's Board of Trustees) are at
minutes 50:00-57:00 in this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtOfsC2n_lQ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtOfsC2n_lQ</a>
Although the agenda that he is promoting is absolutely shocking when
looked at from any mainstream civil society perspective (in the sense
of what is mainstream among civil society movements in general, if we
look beyond the community of those who specialize on Internet
governance), what he is saying is unfortunately an influential view
among many technical people.
In effect, he's saying that all power should be in the hands of the
engineers and by implication in the hands of the companies for which
they're working, and he is promoting the use of smoke screen tactics
that aim at preventing anyone else from gaining an effective influence.
Civil society absolutely needs to find a good way to deal with this
kind of tactics.
These tactics have been successfully used *within* civil society
networks such as the IGC with the aim of preventing IGC from being an
effective civil society voice (again in the sense of what is mainstream
among civil society movements in general, looking beyond the community
of those who specialize on Internet governance).
If IGC in its current incarnation is not capable of dealing with this
challenge effectively, we need to create an IGC v2 that has that
capability.
Greetings,
Norbert
Jean-Christophe Nothias <<a href="mailto:jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com">jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
> All of this is very impressive! Does the lists feel comfortable with
> that type of situation?
>
> It seems that, in this IG world, many things have no stable
> definition at all.
>
> What's about the definition of 'trust', or 'respect'? Too complex?
>
> I think what we observe here is not the right path to heal the
> 'governance gap'* , nor to come to a 'single definition of Internet
> Governance'**, nor to address 'orphan issues'*** and certainly not a
> good way to look at a 'single list of governance issues'****. And
> obviously not help to define a 'single set of principles'*****. We
> should not worry about that. Why? see below.
>
>
> These 'expressions' are forbidden since ICANN48, as per Alejandro
> Pisanty, chair of ISOC Mexico, stated that these expressions have to
> be banned from the I stars (I*, 1Net, ISOC...) narrative.
> Surprisingly everyone in the room seemed to enjoy that rather odd
> collection of 'NO'! I need t to find a couple of speeches by
> notorious totalitarians using such a restrictive vision of a
> democratic debate.
>
> Here what ISOC Mexico Chair suggested to all ISOCs around the planet:
>
> *
> "We should not accept the term 'governance gap'. That’s an invention
> that has been a very popular invention (inaudible) but we should not
> use it in our vocabulary."
>
> **
> "We should have 'no single definition of Internet governance'. We
> should push against the idea that the Brazil meeting, or anything
> else, will produce a definition of Internet Governance which would be
> good for everybody, every time and for many years. We have different
> definitions of Internet Governance depending of countries, regions,
> interests, religions and so forth and we should thrive for them to
> stay diverse."
>
> ***
> "We should not use in our vocabulary ‘orphan issues’. It might be
> argued that there are organ, sorry orphan issues in IG but most of
> the time if something is an issue, there is already someone, some
> organization, couple of engineers trying to work on it. They may be
> not of enough scale or expertise to grow globally or to split up
> multi regionally. There are very few real orphan issues in IG. Many
> of the things that appear as orphan issues are not IG issue but legal
> issues. Your judges are not well trained to identify cybercrime as a
> form of crime, or you do not have that law but it’s a national law
> not a global law."
>
> ****
> "We should not have a 'single list of issues for governance'. There
> are people who got it one way, people who got it another way. There
> are people who put spam and pfishing together. Other pfishing and
> cybersecurity together. Let that happen. Let these thousand flowers
> of definition blossom."
>
> *****
> "We should avoid to establish a 'single set of principles' which is
> among other things, one declared an objective of the Brazilian
> meeting. During the eight years of IGF, there are already been two
> dozens or so of IG definition. They are not all compatible."
>
> etc, etc, etc...
>
> Former president of South Africa, back in the 50's once explained to
> the media and their audiences, the meaning of 'APARTHEID'. "This
> Afrikaner word meant 'GOOD NEIGHBORING'. An expression of progress".
> A beautiful way to twist reality. Manipulating and alluding people,
> erasing definitions, avoiding debates... All of these drive toward
> what the worst regimes can offer to its subordinates.
>
> "We are the revolutionaries. They are the counter revolutionaries."
>
> Comfortable?
>
> JC
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