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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Monday 02 December 2013 12:07 AM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574558@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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charset=windows-1252">
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">It's a basic error to equate a generic
incorporation law with comprehensive regulatory "oversight by
the US legal system" as Parminder is doing.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, I am not equating them. You are just imagining that I am doing
it. Both hold independently - (1) ICANN is incorporated under a US
law, and (2) it is under full oversight of the US legal system. Are
you denying this fact? <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574558@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;"> I am not sure whether Parminder is
just using a rhetorical ploy at this point. But I am not averse
to host-country type agreements that would protect ICANN from
legislative interference.
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
A host country agreement requires international incorporation of
ICANN which requires at least an elementary international law for
that purpose. Now, if you agree to it, we are almost agreed on
everything.<br>
<br>
BTW, since you have often said that ICANN cannot be allowed to
escape accountability (and thus cannot be left as a free float
organisation) then this basic international law for incorporating
ICANN and issuing it its mandate will also require listing some
basic processes of transparency and accountability. you have also
maintained that ICANN should be clearly subject to work within some
basic human rights principles, and some other such stuff, and
therefore this international law will also need to have those basic
principles written into it...<br>
<br>
That almost completes it. Can we agree on this. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574558@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>An honest argument makes a compa rison based on current
facts. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">Regardless of where
ICANN is incorporated now, it has to be incorporated
somewhere. We are presented so far with 3 choices:</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> 1. a Geneva-based INGO like
FIFA or the Red Cross </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> 2. California NPPBL</span></div>
<div> 3. Some new international public law (treaty-based) that
we have no experience with and no concrete guarantees
regarding its content (because it doesn't exist yet) and which
might take 3-10 years to conclude</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Now this is a strange argument.. Actually 2 strange arguments.
Dismissing some option because we dont have it at present! But it is
you who speaks eloquently about post-internationalism, and to get
transnational.... Arent you afraid of such talking about something
which we dont even have a shred of at present, in any proper way? If
not, why are you afraid of simply trying out a treaty, many of which
exist at present. While this one we know would be certainly new and
unique - but the international system is up to such evolution... And
we can certainly stretch it, especially since the IG space has
developed some unique percepts and elements of it own which have a
widespread acceptability. <br>
<br>
Second strange argument is that it will take 3-10 years... Other
than the fact that we have been having this argument for about 10
years now, (1) it can indeed be done in less than 3 years, and (2)
why should we be afraid how much time doing a right thing will take.
Once we sign on the dotted lines agreeing to the basic involved
principles and pathway to operational-ise them, we can always find
an interim structure which is as close to the agreed principles as
possible....<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574558@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take your pick. Open to good arguments for any, as well as
hybrids and other ideas. And if you can bring yourself to
ignore the commentor's nationality, Karl's argument that any
feasible transitional arrangement has to deal with real
contracts and assets must be taken into account.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, we will take that into account as we write the international
law...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574558@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--MM</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000;
font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF286917" style="direction: ltr;"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] on behalf of
parminder [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] DMP} Statement on
Process and Objectives for the Global Multistakeholder
Meeting on the Future of Internet Governance<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 30 November
2013 11:10 AM, Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><snip><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>it is up to Milton to defend his position
and I don't think that he defended an
continuity of any kind of US control. anyway
you can read his ideas in details at his blog.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
For sure, I have read them. Yes, he does advocate
continued oversight ('control' if you like) by US legal
system, or broadly, the US polity, over ICANN, but
extinguishing executive controls exercised through US
DoC.
<br>
<br>
But of course Milton can tell us if I am wrong in saying
the above... parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>I made the analogy to FIFA because it is
international organisation too if you mean
diversity etc but also for the level of
corruption and no accountability there. I
think that you can see the point here . </div>
<div>we can argue a lot about the legal status
of the organisation but what matters at the
end is the mechanism for accountability,
transparency , openness, inclusiveness .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">And as you say if you
are not arguing that ICANN "should be an US
org under US laws ", then the question is
"what kind of org and under what kind of
law" do you advocate. Thanks.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't have an answer about the legal
framework to be used or any other
organisational complexity, however I am
thinking on how to avoid situation where
interests group try to expand trademark law
there or governments use GAC to push for
content policy through gTLD or eroding privacy
rights to match LEA requests without any
oversight or in contradiction to ehir own data
protection law. I am thinking on how we make
the organisation developing users-driven
policies and not to respond to narrow
governmental or private interests.</div>
<div>coming from a small developing country
struggling with a complicated and painful
democratic transition, I am more keen to
defend citizen interests and not by any
geopolitical interests of some governments</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rafik</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder <br>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">I have a
question, maybe naive: if we have
problem with one state to have
dominant role as assumed by mant,
how adding more states will solve
the problem , a kind of zero sum
game?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">another
question, what benefit for the
average users far from any
geopolitical consideration in such
case?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left:1px #ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div><br>
<div>On Saturday 30
November 2013 10:19 AM,
Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">yes
Milton it will make it
the FIFA of IG world
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Rafik <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Rafik, do you in that case
agree that ICANN should
remain an US organisation,
subject solely to US laws...
parminder
<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30
Milton L Mueller
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;
border-left:1px
#ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div
lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">No,
no, no,
please. That
level of
specificity is
counterproductive
at this stage.
Many people
who have
studied this
issue believe
that turning
ICANN into an
INGO is the
surest way for
it to escape
what little
accountability
it currently
has. Those
willing to go
along with a
general call
for reform in
ICANN’s
US-centered
oversight need
not commit
themselves to
a particular
solution at
this point,
and the
language below
does that. </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">Please
don’t come up
with off the
cuff quickie
solutions for
this. It will
take more than
a scan of
Wikipedia to
solve.
</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="142a773e0664cc1f_142a75e5c8a46bc5_142a740b92e6130c__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;
border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> michael
gurstein
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday,
November 29,
2013 7:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Tracy F.
Hackshaw @
Google'<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
'Norbert
Bollow';
Milton L
Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
RE:
[governance]
DMP} Statement
on Process and
Objectives for
the Global
Multistakeholder
Meeting on the
Future of
Internet
Governance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">What
about
</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span>
</span></span></span>Transitioning
ICANN and IANA
to an
International
Non-Governmental
Organization
(INGO) status:
The Global
Meeting should
aim at
developing a
suitable and
widely
acceptable
means to
achieve the
desired
transition of
ICANN and IANA
away from its
links to the
USG and <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">
</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization</a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf
Of </b>Tracy
F. Hackshaw @
Google<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday,
November 29,
2013 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b>
Norbert
Bollow; Milton
L Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[governance]
DMP} Statement
on Process and
Objectives for
the Global
Multistakeholder
Meeting on the
Future of
Internet
Governance</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>ICANN (and
its
President/CEO)
have been
"encouraged"
at several
opportunities
to adjust its
"internationalization"
rhetoric/terminology
and thus its
resulting
INTERNATIONALIZATION
thrust to one
which is
significantly
more embrasive
of the
objectives of,
and indeed,
spirit of what
GLOBALIZATION
in theory,
intends to
achieve.</p>
<p>I believe
therefore that
Milton's
recommendation
is timely and
appropriate
... whether we
use the term
"Globalization"
or a perhaps
more
compromising
and less
economics/free-market
linked phrase
or term such
as "Global
Integration",
or more
radically,
"Glocalization".</p>
<p>------<br>
Rgds,</p>
<p>Tracy</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Nov 29, 2013
4:52 PM,
"Jean-Christophe
NOTHIAS I The
Global
Journal" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net"
target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Dear
Norbert, Dear
Milton,</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">If
I may
contribute,
with a somehow
different and
unusual
perspective,
and in my
humble Global
Governance
observer capacity,
for the
pleasure of
the
reflection:</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Internationalization</b>:
one wants to
have a larger
international
basis: more
offices, more
representatives,
more of a
network of
local branches
that, being
put together,
creates an
international
network. Still
each element
is mostly
comparable to
the starting
point in terms
of culture,
thinking...
Clones spread
around the
world? 'One
for all' kind
of uniformity.
<i>Meaning
many little
ICANNs all
around. </i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Globalization</b>:
this could
happen without
a network of
offices around
the world. You
can observe a
very
globalized
entity
containing so
many different
elements,
co-exisiting,
still
assembling one
strong outlet
with a
governance of
its own, but
embracing
'solutions'
that could fit
more than one
single
corporation,
institution,
nation. One
voice, many
voices... in a
single global
body. So one
ICANN speaking
from one point
to the many in
a global
manner of
thinking. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN with
a big global
mind.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Transnationalization</b>:
this tends to
establish a
community of
people based
in various
locations,
trying to
forget about
their local
identity,
interest or
belonging,
with the
objective to
address a more
common,
regional,
transnational,
trans-sectorial
issue. A way
to achieve an
understanding
of global
magnitude. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN
talking to
other minds.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The first
option has a
few
advantages.
You keep a
greater
control over
the network,
and at the end
of the day,
you can
pretend to be
a global
minded outlet.
Good
communication
value.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The second
option is
probably the
most difficult
to achieve,
specially if
you are not
starting from
a fully
independent
culture. Very
challenging
when one
starts from a
private or
national
basis.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The third
option might
be a good
compromise, if
each one puts
trust in the
other minds
('nods'?). But
maybe a more
sustainable
approach, and
ultimately,
one that could
deliver a true
global minded
system.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Obviously,
very much to
be criticized,
but at least
worth trying
to explore.
And quiet
appropriate
with the
current state
of the IG
debate.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Semantic
has a lasting
effect over
the narrative
and the
ultimate
objective. A
little bit
like
'multistakeholder'
which has
emerged from
the corporate
jargon (to
soften counter
forces or
opponents,
executives
would convene
'stakeholders'
to the table
for
consultation
(trade union,
politician...).
A pure
communication
tool. Plus, it
has a very
poor stable
definition and
understanding,
and an even
looser legal
impact.
Something that
usually brings
a lot of
misunderstandings,
deadlocks...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All the best,</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">__________________________</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">Jean-Christophe Nothias <br>
Editor in
Chief<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a></span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">@jc_nothias</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Le
29 nov. 2013 à
20:52, Norbert
Bollow a écrit
:</p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am Fri, 29 Nov 2013 19:28:57 +0000<br>
schrieb Milton
L Mueller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br>
<br>
</p>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Recognizing
that this is a
late
intervention
(Thursday a
big family</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">holiday
in the US), is
it possible to
replace the
word</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">"internationalization"
with
"globalization"?
Increasingly
we live in</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">a
world where
nations, and
by extension
the
"inter-national"
is not</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">an
adequate term
to define
transborder,
global
phenomena</p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
That's IMO a
very valid
point. Even
though nation
states and
their<br>
governments of
course
continue to
have a
significant
role, it has<br>
certainly
become
inadequate to
try to
understand
transborder,
global<br>
phenomena by
the method
(that was
helpful in
earlier times)
of<br>
decomposing
into what is
happening at
the national
level plus
what is<br>
happening in
inter-national
trade and
other areas of
inter-national<br>
relations.<br>
<br>
On the other
hand, many
civil society
people
including
myself are
very<br>
wary of the
term
"globalization",
as
globalization
has often
increased<br>
social
injustices
while doing
nothing to
resolve the
kinds of
concerns<br>
that the
further
"internationalization"
of ICANN is
intended to
address.<br>
<br>
Maybe yet
another term
could be
used???<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
<br>
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