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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 01 December 2013 11:45 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574510@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">Parminder,
<div>2 questions for you. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. By US laws you mean merely that ICANN is incorporated in
California under its nonprofit corp law? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That, but more importantly, the fact that as a US entity it is
subject to each and every law of the US.... (The jurisdiction and
nature of incorporation does also impact the nature of application
of other laws in various domains to any given organisation).<br>
<br>
Well, I have asked this question here often, but let me ask you
directly one more time. <br>
<br>
You know that .xxx has been challenged in a US court on
anti-competitive grounds. The basic merit of the case has been
judicially tested and the case has been found prima facie
admissible. Obvious it is quite likely that a US court could find
ICANN's decision to institute the .xxx domain as violating US
competition laws (or some other laws). It would be within the
court's competence to strike down ICANN's decision on .xxx. In fact,
it can even go further and ask ICANN to review/ change some of its
polices and procedures in light of such an judgement, which as a
precedence establishes a kind of law... <br>
<br>
If this is to happen, which is a very plausible scenario, my
question to you is, what happens to ICANN's status as a global
governance body , .. In fact with the onrush of new gTLDs sooner or
later some negative US court rulings on ICANN's decisions are
inevitable... Would we begin thinking only after the crisis strikes
- which no doubt it will one day - how to insulate ICANN from such
interference from the US jurisdiction? <br>
<br>
Another scenario: With closed generics being now allowed (something
you supported enthusiastically), a gTLD space can become just an arm
of of a corporation, a part of its private work and networking
space... Now, lets say a generic drugs company in India was to start
a global online generic drugs operation and use a closed gTLD, say,
dot cheap-medicines, for that purpose - just to facilitate its
global operations... Lets say that this operation falls foul with
the Federal Trade Commission or IP commission or whoever and also US
drug companies raise huge stink - and as a consequence, an
executive, regulatory or court authority instructs the US Office of
Foreign Assets Control to take measures to seize the company's
digital assets in the US, the chief among which could be the
concerned gTLD. Does ICANN have an option other than to comply?<br>
<br>
Hundreds of such scenarios can be presented....<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574510@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div>That law does not make ICANN subject to US policy (although
the MoU did, the IANA contract still does to some extent, and
the Affirmation of Commitments also incorporates elements of
US policy).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It makes it subject to US law. Also any policy can any time be
converted into a law.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574510@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div> Are you confusing policy with law? <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574510@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. If ICANN is incorporated under any other nation's laws,
including Switzerland's, is it not also subject to a specific
state's laws? <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
We all know there is something called incorporation under
international law, and corresponding immunity from domestic
jurisdictions... WIPO and WTO can freely take substantive
international decisions that may violate Swiss law. They are not
subject to Swiss law... And you know it as well..<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2574510@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000;
font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF514436" style="direction: ltr;"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
on behalf of parminder [<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 29, 2013 11:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] DMP} Statement on
Process and Objectives for the Global Multistakeholder
Meeting on the Future of Internet Governance<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 30 November 2013
10:19 AM, Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">yes Milton it will make it the FIFA of
IG world
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Rafik <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Rafik, do you in that case agree that ICANN should remain
an US organisation, subject solely to US laws... parminder
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 Milton L Mueller
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">No, no, no, please. That
level of specificity is
counterproductive at this stage. Many
people who have studied this issue
believe that turning ICANN into an INGO
is the surest way for it to escape what
little accountability it currently has.
Those willing to go along with a general
call for reform in ICANN’s US-centered
oversight need not commit themselves to
a particular solution at this point, and
the language below does that. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">Please don’t come up with
off the cuff quickie solutions for this.
It will take more than a scan of
Wikipedia to solve. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="142a740b92e6130c__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
michael gurstein [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 29,
2013 7:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Norbert Bollow'; Milton
L Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance]
DMP} Statement on Process and
Objectives for the Global
Multistakeholder Meeting on the
Future of Internet Governance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">What about </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span>Transitioning
ICANN and IANA to an International
Non-Governmental Organization (INGO)
status: The Global Meeting should aim at
developing a suitable and widely
acceptable means to achieve the desired
transition of ICANN and IANA away from its
links to the USG and <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization</a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tracy F. Hackshaw @
Google<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 29, 2013
2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Norbert Bollow; Milton L
Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] DMP}
Statement on Process and Objectives for
the Global Multistakeholder Meeting on
the Future of Internet Governance</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>ICANN (and its President/CEO) have been
"encouraged" at several opportunities to
adjust its "internationalization"
rhetoric/terminology and thus its
resulting INTERNATIONALIZATION thrust to
one which is significantly more embrasive
of the objectives of, and indeed, spirit
of what GLOBALIZATION in theory, intends
to achieve.</p>
<p>I believe therefore that Milton's
recommendation is timely and appropriate
... whether we use the term
"Globalization" or a perhaps more
compromising and less
economics/free-market linked phrase or
term such as "Global Integration", or more
radically, "Glocalization".</p>
<p>------<br>
Rgds,</p>
<p>Tracy</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 29, 2013 4:52
PM, "Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The
Global Journal" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net"
target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Norbert, Dear
Milton,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I may
contribute, with a somehow different
and unusual perspective, and in my
humble Global Governance
observer capacity, for the pleasure
of the reflection:</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Internationalization</b>:
one wants to have a larger
international basis: more
offices, more representatives,
more of a network of local
branches that, being put
together, creates an
international network. Still
each element is mostly
comparable to the starting point
in terms of culture, thinking...
Clones spread around the world?
'One for all' kind of
uniformity. <i>Meaning many
little ICANNs all around. </i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Globalization</b>:
this could happen without a
network of offices around the
world. You can observe a very
globalized entity containing so
many different elements,
co-exisiting, still assembling
one strong outlet with a
governance of its own, but
embracing 'solutions' that could
fit more than one single
corporation, institution,
nation. One voice, many
voices... in a single global
body. So one ICANN speaking from
one point to the many in a
global manner of thinking. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN with a big global
mind.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Transnationalization</b>:
this tends to establish a
community of people based in
various locations, trying to
forget about their local
identity, interest or belonging,
with the objective to address a
more common, regional,
transnational, trans-sectorial
issue. A way to achieve an
understanding of global
magnitude. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN talking to other
minds.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The first
option has a few advantages. You
keep a greater control over the
network, and at the end of the
day, you can pretend to be a
global minded outlet. Good
communication value.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The second
option is probably the most
difficult to achieve, specially
if you are not starting from a
fully independent culture. Very
challenging when one starts from
a private or national basis.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The third
option might be a good
compromise, if each one puts
trust in the other minds
('nods'?). But maybe a more
sustainable approach, and
ultimately, one that could
deliver a true global minded
system.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Obviously,
very much to be criticized, but
at least worth trying to
explore. And quiet appropriate
with the current state of the IG
debate.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Semantic has
a lasting effect over the
narrative and the ultimate
objective. A little bit like
'multistakeholder' which has
emerged from the corporate
jargon (to soften counter forces
or opponents, executives would
convene 'stakeholders' to the
table for consultation (trade
union, politician...). A pure
communication tool. Plus, it has
a very poor stable definition
and understanding, and an even
looser legal impact. Something
that usually brings a lot of
misunderstandings, deadlocks...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All
the best,</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">__________________________</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">Jean-Christophe
Nothias <br>
Editor in Chief<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a></span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">@jc_nothias</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Le 29
nov. 2013 à 20:52, Norbert
Bollow a écrit :</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am
Fri, 29 Nov 2013 19:28:57
+0000<br>
schrieb Milton L Mueller
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Recognizing
that this is a late
intervention (Thursday a big
family</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">holiday
in the US), is it possible
to replace the word</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">"internationalization"
with "globalization"?
Increasingly we live in</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">a world
where nations, and by
extension the
"inter-national" is not</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">an
adequate term to define
transborder, global
phenomena</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
That's IMO a very valid
point. Even though nation
states and their<br>
governments of course
continue to have a
significant role, it has<br>
certainly become inadequate
to try to understand
transborder, global<br>
phenomena by the method
(that was helpful in earlier
times) of<br>
decomposing into what is
happening at the national
level plus what is<br>
happening in inter-national
trade and other areas of
inter-national<br>
relations.<br>
<br>
On the other hand, many
civil society people
including myself are very<br>
wary of the term
"globalization", as
globalization has often
increased<br>
social injustices while
doing nothing to resolve the
kinds of concerns<br>
that the further
"internationalization" of
ICANN is intended to
address.<br>
<br>
Maybe yet another term could
be used???<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
<br>
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