<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Thank you for bringing out the use cases I was thinking of.<br><br>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 01-Dec-2013, at 21:48, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+1<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One way of approaching this is to distinguish between MS “governance”, MS “decision-making” and MS “discussions”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Discussions provide input into and influence decision making and thus should include everyone involved in the issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Decision making to my mind should include among others those most impacted by the decisions being made.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Governance is about how the rules of the game within which the processes of influencing and decision making are determined. Governance thus must be subject to democratic processes and procedures. In some cases decision making may by democratic processes be determined to most appropriately be MS, but by no means will this always and under every circumstance be the case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 01, 2013 7:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] [bestbits] What is 1Net? Blog post by Paul Wilson of APNIC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sunday 01 December 2013 09:05 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">It's actually a confusion of domains to consider governments as "stakeholders" in the same sense that an individual, a civil society organization or a business or trade association is a stakeholder. Especially when governments are treated as if they are unitary actors who aggregate the interests of an entire nation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Governments qua governments are supposed to aggregate and represent all the "stakeholders" under their jurisdiction. To combine direct, representation of stakeholders with unitary national governments is to throw together two completely incompatible systems of representation. That is what so many people don't get about MSM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>I fully agree with Milton here...<br><br>All our time in our domestic advocacy and political representation we (as in our organisation and networks) spend telling the governments (meaning those who occupy gov positions) that they cannot represent their own interests, they have to represent people's interest. That is what democratic government is about. Now, if I agree that government is a stakeholder like others, then they obviously are to represent their own interests and not of the people... This is why so much of mutlistakeholder concepts and lingo do not suit or fit within the democratic ideals and discourse... <br><br>parminder <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div id="divRpF922745"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] on behalf of Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 01, 2013 4:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Guru </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Mangal","serif"">गुरु</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] [bestbits] What is 1Net? Blog post by Paul Wilson of APNIC</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Why shouldn't they be?<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 01-Dec-2013, at 14:08, Guru <span style="font-family:"Mangal","serif"">गुरु</span> <<a href="mailto:Guru@ITforChange.net" target="_blank">Guru@ITforChange.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 12/01/2013 11:02 AM, Paul Wilson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre>Thanks Suresh. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Indeed, I was referring to the "Internet community" in the broadest sense, including all stakeholders.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>are Governments included in this 'all stakeholders'<br><br>Guru<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Paul.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 30/11/2013, at 8:45 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank"><suresh@hserus.net></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre>Not speaking for Paul but the definition of Internet community he appears to refer to is quite open, and more importantly, does not seek to specifically exclude particular classes of people or organizations.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 30-Nov-2013, at 0:57, "michael gurstein" <a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank"><gurstein@gmail.com></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre>Thanks for the pointer to this very interesting post Nnenna.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Paul uses the term “Internet community” in several places and I’m curious what he means by it…<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I have a feeling that we may not all have a similar definition (or that our definitions are evolving) and that that might be one reason why our discussions often go off the rails—we have different conceptions of who the audience or target group is for various of the policy issues that we address from time to time.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(I provided my own definition in my current blogpost, but I’m not sure that everyone here agrees with mine J and of course ISOC, ICANN, IETF also all use the term “Internet community” and if those folks also want to chime in it would be greatly appreciated.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>M<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a> [<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>] On Behalf Of Nnenna Nwakanma<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: Governance; <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank"><bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: [bestbits] What is 1Net? Blog post by Paul Wilson of APNIC<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Just published here:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.circleid.com/posts/2013112_what_is_1net_to_me/" target="_blank">http://www.circleid.com/posts/2013112_what_is_1net_to_me/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>N[MG>] <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br><span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br><span> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br><span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br><span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>