<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>That doesn't quite answer Rafik's question - which is mine too.  And I think the same as them - that creating a vacuum which is going to be filled by an entirely new body is a nonstarter.  Expanding governance and participation in existing structures is going to work far better. </div><div><br></div><div>The CIRP is no sort of answer for this.  So ideally this is something that people who actively participate in ICANN and have an actual stake in it are best qualified to answer.<br><br>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 30-Nov-2013, at 10:50, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  
  
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 30 November 2013 10:38 AM,
      Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAH5sThn5ptuTqKegdu9zF-pJt1yQPy31xNS8EwP=9j_GqrUm6A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">if the solely objective of
          internationalization of ICANN is just to  change the location
          and giving it an kind of immunity  ending to erode any
          accountability or transparency, yes we have problem. <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    No that is not the objective... The objective is to have means of
    democratic oversight over some key resources that are a global
    commons... <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAH5sThn5ptuTqKegdu9zF-pJt1yQPy31xNS8EwP=9j_GqrUm6A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra"> I am not arguing that should be an US
          org under US laws. how could you conclude that?<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Because that is what Milton is arguing, and that is what it
    precisely and fully means if ICANN is not to be converted from a US
    organisation to an international non-gov organisation, unless of
    course you prefer it changes into a international inter-gov
    organisation, which I am sure you dont advocate... Can you point to
    the gap in this logical chain of 'my conclusion',<br>
    <br>
    And as you say if you are not arguing that ICANN  "should be an US
    org under US laws ", then the question is "what kind of org and
    under what kind of law" do you advocate. Thanks.<br>
    <br>
    parminder <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAH5sThn5ptuTqKegdu9zF-pJt1yQPy31xNS8EwP=9j_GqrUm6A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          I have a question, maybe naive: if we have problem with one
          state to have dominant role as assumed by mant, how adding
          more states will solve the problem , a kind of zero sum game?</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">another question, what benefit for the
          average users far from any geopolitical consideration in such
          case?</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                <div class="im"> <br>
                  <div>On Saturday 30 November 2013 10:19 AM, Rafik
                    Dammak wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">yes Milton it will make it  the FIFA
                      of IG world
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
                        <div>
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div>Rafik <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                </div>
                Rafik, do you in that case agree that ICANN should
                remain an US organisation, subject solely to US laws...
                parminder <br>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5"> <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 Milton L
                            Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span><br>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                              #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                              <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">No,

                                      no, no, please. That level of
                                      specificity is counterproductive
                                      at this stage. Many people who
                                      have studied this issue believe
                                      that turning ICANN into an INGO is
                                      the surest way for it to escape
                                      what little accountability it
                                      currently has. Those willing to go
                                      along with a general call for
                                      reform in ICANN’s US-centered
                                      oversight need not commit
                                      themselves to a particular
                                      solution at this point, and the
                                      language below does that. </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please

                                      don’t come up with off the cuff
                                      quickie solutions for this. It
                                      will take more than a scan of
                                      Wikipedia to solve. </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true" name="142a75e5c8a46bc5_142a740b92e6130c__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                      #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
                                      0in 0in">
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
                                          michael gurstein [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]
                                          <br>
                                          <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November
                                          29, 2013 7:49 PM<br>
                                          <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
                                          'Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google'<br>
                                          <b>Cc:</b> 'Norbert Bollow';
                                          Milton L Mueller<br>
                                          <b>Subject:</b> RE:
                                          [governance] DMP} Statement on
                                          Process and Objectives for the
                                          Global Multistakeholder
                                          Meeting on the Future of
                                          Internet Governance</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What

                                      about </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                  <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times
                                          New Roman"">      </span></span></span>Transitioning
                                    ICANN and IANA to an International
                                    Non-Governmental Organization (INGO)
                                    status: The Global Meeting should
                                    aim at developing a suitable and
                                    widely acceptable means to achieve
                                    the desired transition of ICANN and
                                    IANA away from its links to the USG
                                    and <span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                                  <p> </p>
                                  <p><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization</a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                                  <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                  <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
                                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
                                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tracy F.
                                      Hackshaw @ Google<br>
                                      <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 29,
                                      2013 2:39 PM<br>
                                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
                                      <b>Cc:</b> Norbert Bollow; Milton
                                      L Mueller<br>
                                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
                                      DMP} Statement on Process and
                                      Objectives for the Global
                                      Multistakeholder Meeting on the
                                      Future of Internet Governance</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <p>ICANN (and its President/CEO) have
                                    been "encouraged" at several
                                    opportunities to adjust its
                                    "internationalization"
                                    rhetoric/terminology and thus its
                                    resulting INTERNATIONALIZATION
                                    thrust to one which is significantly
                                    more embrasive of the objectives of,
                                    and indeed, spirit of what
                                    GLOBALIZATION in theory, intends to
                                    achieve.</p>
                                  <p>I believe therefore that Milton's
                                    recommendation is timely and
                                    appropriate ... whether we use the
                                    term "Globalization" or a perhaps
                                    more compromising and less
                                    economics/free-market linked phrase
                                    or term such as "Global
                                    Integration", or more radically,
                                    "Glocalization".</p>
                                  <p>------<br>
                                    Rgds,</p>
                                  <p>Tracy</p>
                                  <p>    </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 29, 2013
                                      4:52 PM, "Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS
                                      I The Global Journal" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>

                                      wrote:</p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Dear Norbert,
                                        Dear Milton,</p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">If I may
                                          contribute, with a somehow
                                          different and unusual
                                          perspective, and in my humble
                                          Global Governance
                                          observer capacity,  for the
                                          pleasure of the reflection:</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Internationalization</b>:
                                              one wants to have a larger
                                              international basis: more
                                              offices, more
                                              representatives, more of a
                                              network of local branches
                                              that, being put together,
                                              creates an international
                                              network. Still each
                                              element is mostly
                                              comparable to the starting
                                              point in terms of culture,
                                              thinking... Clones spread
                                              around the world? 'One for
                                              all' kind of uniformity. <i>Meaning
                                                many little ICANNs all
                                                around. </i></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Globalization</b>:
                                              this could happen without
                                              a network of offices
                                              around the world. You can
                                              observe a very globalized
                                              entity containing so many
                                              different elements,
                                              co-exisiting, still
                                              assembling one strong
                                              outlet with a governance
                                              of its own, but embracing
                                              'solutions' that could fit
                                              more than one single
                                              corporation, institution,
                                              nation. One voice, many
                                              voices... in a single
                                              global body. So one ICANN
                                              speaking from one point to
                                              the many in a global
                                              manner of thinking. </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
                                                one ICANN with a big
                                                global mind.</i></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Transnationalization</b>:
                                              this tends to establish a
                                              community of people based
                                              in various locations,
                                              trying to forget about
                                              their local identity,
                                              interest or belonging,
                                              with the objective to
                                              address a more common,
                                              regional, transnational,
                                              trans-sectorial issue. A
                                              way to achieve an
                                              understanding of global
                                              magnitude. </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
                                                one ICANN talking to
                                                other minds.</i></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">- The
                                              first option has a few
                                              advantages. You keep a
                                              greater control over the
                                              network, and at the end of
                                              the day, you can pretend
                                              to be a global minded
                                              outlet. Good communication
                                              value.</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">- The
                                              second option is probably
                                              the most difficult to
                                              achieve, specially if you
                                              are not starting from a
                                              fully independent culture.
                                              Very challenging when one
                                              starts from a private or
                                              national basis.</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">- The
                                              third option might be a
                                              good compromise, if each
                                              one puts trust in the
                                              other minds ('nods'?). But
                                              maybe a more sustainable
                                              approach, and ultimately,
                                              one that could deliver a
                                              true global minded system.</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Obviously,
                                              very much to be
                                              criticized, but at least
                                              worth trying to explore.
                                              And quiet appropriate with
                                              the current state of the
                                              IG debate.</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Semantic
                                              has a lasting effect over
                                              the narrative and the
                                              ultimate objective. A
                                              little bit like
                                              'multistakeholder' which
                                              has emerged from the
                                              corporate jargon (to
                                              soften counter forces or
                                              opponents, executives
                                              would convene
                                              'stakeholders' to the
                                              table for consultation
                                              (trade union,
                                              politician...). A pure
                                              communication tool. Plus,
                                              it has a very poor stable
                                              definition and
                                              understanding, and an even
                                              looser legal impact.
                                              Something that usually
                                              brings a lot of
                                              misunderstandings,
                                              deadlocks...</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All
                                              the best,</p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">__________________________</p>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Jean-Christophe Nothias <br>
                                                      Editor in Chief<br>
                                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a></span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">@jc_nothias</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal">Le
                                                  29 nov. 2013 à 20:52,
                                                  Norbert Bollow a écrit
                                                  :</p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am
                                                  Fri, 29 Nov 2013
                                                  19:28:57 +0000<br>
                                                  schrieb Milton L
                                                  Mueller <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                </p>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal">Recognizing
                                                  that this is a late
                                                  intervention (Thursday
                                                  a big family</p>
                                                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">holiday
                                                    in the US), is it
                                                    possible to replace
                                                    the word</p>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">"internationalization"

                                                    with
                                                    "globalization"?
                                                    Increasingly we live
                                                    in</p>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">a
                                                    world where nations,
                                                    and by extension the
                                                    "inter-national" is
                                                    not</p>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">an
                                                    adequate term to
                                                    define transborder,
                                                    global phenomena</p>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                  That's IMO a very
                                                  valid point. Even
                                                  though nation states
                                                  and their<br>
                                                  governments of course
                                                  continue to have a
                                                  significant role, it
                                                  has<br>
                                                  certainly become
                                                  inadequate to try to
                                                  understand
                                                  transborder, global<br>
                                                  phenomena by the
                                                  method (that was
                                                  helpful in earlier
                                                  times) of<br>
                                                  decomposing into what
                                                  is happening at the
                                                  national level plus
                                                  what is<br>
                                                  happening in
                                                  inter-national trade
                                                  and other areas of
                                                  inter-national<br>
                                                  relations.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  On the other hand,
                                                  many civil society
                                                  people including
                                                  myself are very<br>
                                                  wary of the term
                                                  "globalization", as
                                                  globalization has
                                                  often increased<br>
                                                  social injustices
                                                  while doing nothing to
                                                  resolve the kinds of
                                                  concerns<br>
                                                  that the further
                                                  "internationalization"
                                                  of ICANN is intended
                                                  to address.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Maybe yet another term
                                                  could be used???<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Greetings,<br>
                                                  Norbert<br>
                                                  <br>
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