<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="im">
<br></div>
No that is not the objective... The objective is to have means of
democratic oversight over some key resources that are a global
commons... <br><div class="im">
<br></div></div></blockquote><div>I dont think there is disagreement about the oversight BUT I don't see how it will be democratic , at least I didn't see any rationale or logical explanation</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="im">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"> I am not arguing that should be an US
org under US laws. how could you conclude that?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Because that is what Milton is arguing, and that is what it
precisely and fully means if ICANN is not to be converted from a US
organisation to an international non-gov organisation, unless of
course you prefer it changes into a international inter-gov
organisation, which I am sure you dont advocate... Can you point to
the gap in this logical chain of 'my conclusion',<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>it is up to Milton to defend his position and I don't think that he defended an continuity of any kind of US control. anyway you can read his ideas in details at his blog.</div>
<div>I made the analogy to FIFA because it is international organisation too if you mean diversity etc but also for the level of corruption and no accountability there. I think that you can see the point here . </div><div>
we can argue a lot about the legal status of the organisation but what matters at the end is the mechanism for accountability, transparency , openness, inclusiveness .</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
And as you say if you are not arguing that ICANN "should be an US
org under US laws ", then the question is "what kind of org and
under what kind of law" do you advocate. Thanks.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't have an answer about the legal framework to be used or any other organisational complexity, however I am thinking on how to avoid situation where interests group try to expand trademark law there or governments use GAC to push for content policy through gTLD or eroding privacy rights to match LEA requests without any oversight or in contradiction to ehir own data protection law. I am thinking on how we make the organisation developing users-driven policies and not to respond to narrow governmental or private interests.</div>
<div>coming from a small developing country struggling with a complicated and painful democratic transition, I am more keen to defend citizen interests and not by any geopolitical interests of some governments</div><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Rafik</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder <br></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
I have a question, maybe naive: if we have problem with one
state to have dominant role as assumed by mant, how adding
more states will solve the problem , a kind of zero sum game?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">another question, what benefit for the
average users far from any geopolitical consideration in such
case?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div> <br>
<div>On Saturday 30 November 2013 10:19 AM, Rafik
Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">yes Milton it will make it the FIFA
of IG world
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Rafik <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Rafik, do you in that case agree that ICANN should
remain an US organisation, subject solely to US laws...
parminder <br>
<div>
<div> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 Milton L
Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">No,
no, no, please. That level of
specificity is counterproductive
at this stage. Many people who
have studied this issue believe
that turning ICANN into an INGO is
the surest way for it to escape
what little accountability it
currently has. Those willing to go
along with a general call for
reform in ICANN’s US-centered
oversight need not commit
themselves to a particular
solution at this point, and the
language below does that. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please
don’t come up with off the cuff
quickie solutions for this. It
will take more than a scan of
Wikipedia to solve. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="142a773e0664cc1f_142a75e5c8a46bc5_142a740b92e6130c__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
michael gurstein [mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November
29, 2013 7:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Norbert Bollow';
Milton L Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE:
[governance] DMP} Statement on
Process and Objectives for the
Global Multistakeholder
Meeting on the Future of
Internet Governance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
about </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span> </span></span></span>Transitioning
ICANN and IANA to an International
Non-Governmental Organization (INGO)
status: The Global Meeting should
aim at developing a suitable and
widely acceptable means to achieve
the desired transition of ICANN and
IANA away from its links to the USG
and <span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization</a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tracy F.
Hackshaw @ Google<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 29,
2013 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Norbert Bollow; Milton
L Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
DMP} Statement on Process and
Objectives for the Global
Multistakeholder Meeting on the
Future of Internet Governance</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>ICANN (and its President/CEO) have
been "encouraged" at several
opportunities to adjust its
"internationalization"
rhetoric/terminology and thus its
resulting INTERNATIONALIZATION
thrust to one which is significantly
more embrasive of the objectives of,
and indeed, spirit of what
GLOBALIZATION in theory, intends to
achieve.</p>
<p>I believe therefore that Milton's
recommendation is timely and
appropriate ... whether we use the
term "Globalization" or a perhaps
more compromising and less
economics/free-market linked phrase
or term such as "Global
Integration", or more radically,
"Glocalization".</p>
<p>------<br>
Rgds,</p>
<p>Tracy</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 29, 2013
4:52 PM, "Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS
I The Global Journal" <<a href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Norbert,
Dear Milton,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I may
contribute, with a somehow
different and unusual
perspective, and in my humble
Global Governance
observer capacity, for the
pleasure of the reflection:</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Internationalization</b>:
one wants to have a larger
international basis: more
offices, more
representatives, more of a
network of local branches
that, being put together,
creates an international
network. Still each
element is mostly
comparable to the starting
point in terms of culture,
thinking... Clones spread
around the world? 'One for
all' kind of uniformity. <i>Meaning
many little ICANNs all
around. </i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Globalization</b>:
this could happen without
a network of offices
around the world. You can
observe a very globalized
entity containing so many
different elements,
co-exisiting, still
assembling one strong
outlet with a governance
of its own, but embracing
'solutions' that could fit
more than one single
corporation, institution,
nation. One voice, many
voices... in a single
global body. So one ICANN
speaking from one point to
the many in a global
manner of thinking. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN with a big
global mind.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Transnationalization</b>:
this tends to establish a
community of people based
in various locations,
trying to forget about
their local identity,
interest or belonging,
with the objective to
address a more common,
regional, transnational,
trans-sectorial issue. A
way to achieve an
understanding of global
magnitude. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN talking to
other minds.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The
first option has a few
advantages. You keep a
greater control over the
network, and at the end of
the day, you can pretend
to be a global minded
outlet. Good communication
value.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The
second option is probably
the most difficult to
achieve, specially if you
are not starting from a
fully independent culture.
Very challenging when one
starts from a private or
national basis.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- The
third option might be a
good compromise, if each
one puts trust in the
other minds ('nods'?). But
maybe a more sustainable
approach, and ultimately,
one that could deliver a
true global minded system.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Obviously,
very much to be
criticized, but at least
worth trying to explore.
And quiet appropriate with
the current state of the
IG debate.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Semantic
has a lasting effect over
the narrative and the
ultimate objective. A
little bit like
'multistakeholder' which
has emerged from the
corporate jargon (to
soften counter forces or
opponents, executives
would convene
'stakeholders' to the
table for consultation
(trade union,
politician...). A pure
communication tool. Plus,
it has a very poor stable
definition and
understanding, and an even
looser legal impact.
Something that usually
brings a lot of
misunderstandings,
deadlocks...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All
the best,</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">__________________________</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Jean-Christophe Nothias <br>
Editor in Chief<br>
<a href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a></span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">@jc_nothias</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Le
29 nov. 2013 à 20:52,
Norbert Bollow a écrit
:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am
Fri, 29 Nov 2013
19:28:57 +0000<br>
schrieb Milton L
Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Recognizing
that this is a late
intervention (Thursday
a big family</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">holiday
in the US), is it
possible to replace
the word</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">"internationalization"
with
"globalization"?
Increasingly we live
in</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">a
world where nations,
and by extension the
"inter-national" is
not</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">an
adequate term to
define transborder,
global phenomena</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
That's IMO a very
valid point. Even
though nation states
and their<br>
governments of course
continue to have a
significant role, it
has<br>
certainly become
inadequate to try to
understand
transborder, global<br>
phenomena by the
method (that was
helpful in earlier
times) of<br>
decomposing into what
is happening at the
national level plus
what is<br>
happening in
inter-national trade
and other areas of
inter-national<br>
relations.<br>
<br>
On the other hand,
many civil society
people including
myself are very<br>
wary of the term
"globalization", as
globalization has
often increased<br>
social injustices
while doing nothing to
resolve the kinds of
concerns<br>
that the further
"internationalization"
of ICANN is intended
to address.<br>
<br>
Maybe yet another term
could be used???<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
<br>
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