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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 30 November 2013 11:10 AM,
Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAH5sThnDKOsNCjS6a2UQOaZ=4AP4e8BNNufFgAMWysjqGUxtKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><snip><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>it is up to Milton to defend his position and I don't
think that he defended an continuity of any kind of US
control. anyway you can read his ideas in details at his
blog.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
For sure, I have read them. Yes, he does advocate continued
oversight ('control' if you like) by US legal system, or broadly,
the US polity, over ICANN, but extinguishing executive controls
exercised through US DoC. <br>
<br>
But of course Milton can tell us if I am wrong in saying the
above... parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAH5sThnDKOsNCjS6a2UQOaZ=4AP4e8BNNufFgAMWysjqGUxtKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>I made the analogy to FIFA because it is international
organisation too if you mean diversity etc but also for
the level of corruption and no accountability there. I
think that you can see the point here . </div>
<div>
we can argue a lot about the legal status of the
organisation but what matters at the end is the mechanism
for accountability, transparency , openness, inclusiveness
.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> And as you say if
you are not arguing that ICANN "should be an US org
under US laws ", then the question is "what kind of org
and under what kind of law" do you advocate. Thanks.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't have an answer about the legal framework to be
used or any other organisational complexity, however I am
thinking on how to avoid situation where interests group
try to expand trademark law there or governments use GAC
to push for content policy through gTLD or eroding privacy
rights to match LEA requests without any oversight or in
contradiction to ehir own data protection law. I am
thinking on how we make the organisation developing
users-driven policies and not to respond to narrow
governmental or private interests.</div>
<div>coming from a small developing country struggling with
a complicated and painful democratic transition, I am
more keen to defend citizen interests and not by any
geopolitical interests of some governments</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rafik</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder <br>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"> I have a question,
maybe naive: if we have problem with one state
to have dominant role as assumed by mant, how
adding more states will solve the problem , a
kind of zero sum game?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">another question, what
benefit for the average users far from any
geopolitical consideration in such case?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30 parminder
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div> <br>
<div>On Saturday 30 November 2013
10:19 AM, Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">yes Milton it will
make it the FIFA of IG world
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Rafik <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Rafik, do you in that case agree that
ICANN should remain an US organisation,
subject solely to US laws... parminder <br>
<div>
<div> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/30
Milton L Mueller <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue"
vlink="purple"
lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">No,
no, no, please.
That level of
specificity is
counterproductive
at this stage.
Many people who
have studied this
issue believe that
turning ICANN into
an INGO is the
surest way for it
to escape what
little
accountability it
currently has.
Those willing to
go along with a
general call for
reform in ICANN’s
US-centered
oversight need not
commit themselves
to a particular
solution at this
point, and the
language below
does that. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please
don’t come up with
off the cuff
quickie solutions
for this. It will
take more than a
scan of Wikipedia
to solve. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="142a773e0664cc1f_142a75e5c8a46bc5_142a740b92e6130c__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
michael
gurstein
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday,
November 29,
2013 7:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Tracy F.
Hackshaw @
Google'<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
'Norbert
Bollow';
Milton L
Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
RE:
[governance]
DMP} Statement
on Process and
Objectives for
the Global
Multistakeholder
Meeting on the
Future of
Internet
Governance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
about </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span>
</span></span></span>Transitioning
ICANN and IANA to an
International
Non-Governmental
Organization (INGO)
status: The Global
Meeting should aim
at developing a
suitable and widely
acceptable means to
achieve the desired
transition of ICANN
and IANA away from
its links to the USG
and <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_nongovernmental_organization</a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tracy
F. Hackshaw @
Google<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday, November
29, 2013 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Norbert
Bollow; Milton L
Mueller<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re: [governance]
DMP} Statement on
Process and
Objectives for the
Global
Multistakeholder
Meeting on the
Future of Internet
Governance</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>ICANN (and its
President/CEO) have
been "encouraged" at
several
opportunities to
adjust its
"internationalization"
rhetoric/terminology
and thus its
resulting
INTERNATIONALIZATION
thrust to one which
is significantly
more embrasive of
the objectives of,
and indeed, spirit
of what
GLOBALIZATION in
theory, intends to
achieve.</p>
<p>I believe therefore
that Milton's
recommendation is
timely and
appropriate ...
whether we use the
term "Globalization"
or a perhaps more
compromising and
less
economics/free-market
linked phrase or
term such as "Global
Integration", or
more radically,
"Glocalization".</p>
<p>------<br>
Rgds,</p>
<p>Tracy</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Nov 29, 2013 4:52
PM,
"Jean-Christophe
NOTHIAS I The
Global Journal"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Dear
Norbert, Dear
Milton,</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">If
I may
contribute,
with a somehow
different and
unusual
perspective,
and in my
humble Global
Governance
observer capacity,
for the
pleasure of
the
reflection:</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Internationalization</b>:
one wants to
have a larger
international
basis: more
offices, more
representatives,
more of a
network of
local branches
that, being
put together,
creates an
international
network. Still
each element
is mostly
comparable to
the starting
point in terms
of culture,
thinking...
Clones spread
around the
world? 'One
for all' kind
of uniformity.
<i>Meaning
many little
ICANNs all
around. </i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Globalization</b>:
this could
happen without
a network of
offices around
the world. You
can observe a
very
globalized
entity
containing so
many different
elements,
co-exisiting,
still
assembling one
strong outlet
with a
governance of
its own, but
embracing
'solutions'
that could fit
more than one
single
corporation,
institution,
nation. One
voice, many
voices... in a
single global
body. So one
ICANN speaking
from one point
to the many in
a global
manner of
thinking. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN with
a big global
mind.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b>Transnationalization</b>:
this tends to
establish a
community of
people based
in various
locations,
trying to
forget about
their local
identity,
interest or
belonging,
with the
objective to
address a more
common,
regional,
transnational,
trans-sectorial
issue. A way
to achieve an
understanding
of global
magnitude. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><i>Meaning
one ICANN
talking to
other minds.</i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The first
option has a
few
advantages.
You keep a
greater
control over
the network,
and at the end
of the day,
you can
pretend to be
a global
minded outlet.
Good
communication
value.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The second
option is
probably the
most difficult
to achieve,
specially if
you are not
starting from
a fully
independent
culture. Very
challenging
when one
starts from a
private or
national
basis.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-
The third
option might
be a good
compromise, if
each one puts
trust in the
other minds
('nods'?). But
maybe a more
sustainable
approach, and
ultimately,
one that could
deliver a true
global minded
system.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Obviously,
very much to
be criticized,
but at least
worth trying
to explore.
And quiet
appropriate
with the
current state
of the IG
debate.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Semantic
has a lasting
effect over
the narrative
and the
ultimate
objective. A
little bit
like
'multistakeholder'
which has
emerged from
the corporate
jargon (to
soften counter
forces or
opponents,
executives
would convene
'stakeholders'
to the table
for
consultation
(trade union,
politician...).
A pure
communication
tool. Plus, it
has a very
poor stable
definition and
understanding,
and an even
looser legal
impact.
Something that
usually brings
a lot of
misunderstandings,
deadlocks...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All the best,</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">__________________________</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">Jean-Christophe Nothias <br>
Editor in
Chief<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net" target="_blank">jc.nothias@theglobaljournal.net</a></span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt">@jc_nothias</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Optima","serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Le
29 nov. 2013 à
20:52, Norbert
Bollow a écrit
:</p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Am Fri, 29 Nov 2013 19:28:57 +0000<br>
schrieb Milton
L Mueller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br>
<br>
</p>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Recognizing
that this is a
late
intervention
(Thursday a
big family</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">holiday
in the US), is
it possible to
replace the
word</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">"internationalization"
with
"globalization"?
Increasingly
we live in</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">a
world where
nations, and
by extension
the
"inter-national"
is not</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal">an
adequate term
to define
transborder,
global
phenomena</p>
</blockquote>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
That's IMO a
very valid
point. Even
though nation
states and
their<br>
governments of
course
continue to
have a
significant
role, it has<br>
certainly
become
inadequate to
try to
understand
transborder,
global<br>
phenomena by
the method
(that was
helpful in
earlier times)
of<br>
decomposing
into what is
happening at
the national
level plus
what is<br>
happening in
inter-national
trade and
other areas of
inter-national<br>
relations.<br>
<br>
On the other
hand, many
civil society
people
including
myself are
very<br>
wary of the
term
"globalization",
as
globalization
has often
increased<br>
social
injustices
while doing
nothing to
resolve the
kinds of
concerns<br>
that the
further
"internationalization"
of ICANN is
intended to
address.<br>
<br>
Maybe yet
another term
could be
used???<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
<br>
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