<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div apple-content-edited="true"><div style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I doubt Fadi or anyone else is tracking and recalibrating to the twists and turns of discussion on the gov list. If he does a meeting with someone and they say they don't like 'coalition' he may say fine let's call it a platform, whatever. He just wants to move forward with people on board. If at some future point he refers again to a coalition, it won't be a matter of some change of position to which dark intent should be ascribed, but rather that he's forgotten this mattered to someone. And having been in the meetings and had multiple chats offline, I don't recall any statement that everyone must subscribe to a certain MS-ist ideology, or a subsequent decision to withdraw this 'requirement'.</div><div style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The construct that there are opposing groups with fixed and antagonistic positions and this is all a matter of bargaining and concessions was not a shared reality and starting point, so he was a little puzzled. But he's getting clued in.</div><div style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div><div style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Bill</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Oct 25, 2013, at 11:30 AM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<font face="Verdana">However, it must be said that immediate
critical responses like Jeremy's email, and others supporting it,
did make a significant difference. The term ' a new coalition'
seems to have been withdrawn in the favour of a more neutral one -
a new platform..... And the condition of having to swear by a
certain MS-ist ideology is also withdrawn, and the only need is
that one should be willing to engage with the emerging effort to
address global IG in a meaningful way..<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 25 October 2013 08:09 AM,
William Drake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:9ECFCB8D-599E-4355-B5EB-95872C57F8EA@uzh.ch" type="cite">
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<div style="font-family: Palatino; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Mawaki</div>
<br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true">Sorry not to see this earlier.
Events have overtaken things in the meanwhile, we met with Fadi
and it was useful, so there's not much point spending cycles
deconstructing the misconnects at this point. </div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
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<div apple-content-edited="true">Cheers</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
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<div apple-content-edited="true">Bill</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
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<div>
<div>On Oct 24, 2013, at 5:50 PM, Mawaki Chango <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com">kichango@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi,<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:24 AM,
McTim <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Bill,<br>
<div class="im"><br>
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:48 PM, William Drake <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch">william.drake@uzh.ch</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Hi<br>
><br>
> Despite Chris' wording, I don't view this
effort as a power grab, a framing<br>
> that seems to suggest that there's fixed pie of
power (?) that one group<br>
> wishes to take at the expense of others. Fadi
went to Dilma, they talked<br>
> and agreed to hold a multistakeholder meeting
with yet to be fully agreed<br>
> goals, and he came to the people he knows and
said ok we need to get<br>
> organized and have an open coalition that goes
beyond us to include people<br>
> who favor MS processes even if they have
different ideas of the desirable<br>
> end states. Hence the meeting was meeting was
open and you were there to<br>
> voice your concerns. If you decide you don't
want to coordinate with the<br>
> people involved in that effort you can try to
organize your own relationship<br>
> to the Brazil meeting. But surely that doesn't
mean that those who do<br>
> shouldn't be able to.<br>
<br>
</div>
Sums it up nicely.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> Since "their" meeting was open and "we" were
invited to get involved, why do<br>
> "we" need to have a private meeting from which
"they" are excluded?<br>
<br>
</div>
good question!<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bill, are you saying that the "I* orgs" never had
one single meeting about this without CS being
involved? And you know that for certain?</div>
<div>I'd hate to make Jeremy look bad just because he's
proposed a CS meeting "intra muros" to devise a
strategy. But I'd agree that once we get past the
initial clearing and gauging of the field, we too
should have joint meetings with any stakeholders "<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">who favor MS processes
even if they have different ideas of the desirable</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> end states" to use your
words. But frankly, you sound like it's EITHER
(coordination with I* orgs) OR (direct "relationship
to the Brazil meeting"), with a hint that the former
is the most desirable and the latter the least. Is
my reading correct? Why can't we do both, especially
if there remain issues on which the objectives of CS
and those of I* orgs are not fully aligned?</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">And should we
understand something of your use of the term "Brazil
meeting" as opposed to "summit"? Not that I have any
fetishism with summits :-) but since Jeremy also
mention that change in terminology, I thought I
would ask.</span></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
@Mawaki, I never said I was "anti-governmentalist".
Nor did I say the<br>
"technical community" should take over from
governments.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>McTim, I might surprise you but of course you never
said that. I know. But what you wrote was a direct
reaction/response to what Jeremy wrote in the first
paragraph of his email. I just contend that there is
no way one can fully and accurately understand what
you wrote in abstraction, without linking it to what
you were responding to. And once one does that, there
are direct implications to what you're saying even if
you didn't voice them literally. That's also part of
the complexity of conversations involving 3 or more
pragmatic (in the linguistic sense) standpoints. If
you didn't question Jeremy's take on the dynamic of
what went on in that meeting and just asked him
whether CS shouldn't be happy about it, then I'll have
to start from the same place, i.e. granting his
rendition is accurate, in my response to your
question. And if his rendition is accurate, then such
state of affairs has implications that you did not
need to state explicitly. By asking us shouldn't we be
happy with that, you are indicating that you agreed
with such state of affairs. In sum, if such (as
described by Jeremy) is the state of affairs and if
you agree with that (as implied by your question),
then my response to you was warranted. Note that the
said response is more of a commentary on the said
state of affairs than it is about what you personally
think ultimately --in case the two are different.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mawaki </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
I think we need to realise that governments make the
laws and<br>
regulations that the Internet operates under in each
country, in<br>
addition to the "Geneva-style" Internet Governance
processes. I'm not<br>
willing to hand them any more decision making ability
when I can<br>
instead have CS play a significant role in multi-equal
processes.<br>
<br>
I think it is poor strategy and poor form for us to
over-react.<br>
Shouldn't we be strongly supportive of grass-roots
coalitions?<br>
<div class="">
<div class="h5"><br>
--<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address
indicates where it is. A<br>
route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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