<div dir="ltr">Hi Parminder,<div><br></div><div>sorry I was not asking about the draft letter but more what I understood from your proposal is that we move quickly and spend time shorter than usual even if there are concerns . I want to be sure if I got you message correctly.</div>
<div>I am still cautious with hurrying to write letter , I am still not convinced and I want to highlight that any action we take, will have impact soon or later and can backfire. I don't think that you would disagree with more strategical approach. </div>
<div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Best,</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Rafik</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/10/11 parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Verdana">It is here<br>
<br>
<a href="http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/Brazil2014" target="_blank">http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/Brazil2014</a><br>
<br>
Just a word of caution - we dont want to make this an ominbus
document of demands. At this stage we need a clear, crisp and
strong letter, of a few sentences, that Brazilian President or
some top guy would actually read, and not get confusing messages.
I am not saying we should not say whatever we definitively want to
say - but be clear and short, that is all.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></font><div><div class="h5">
<div>On Friday 11 October 2013 11:15 AM,
Rafik Dammak wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>sorry I am not really getting the proposal you are
developing here? can you please clarify?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
Rafik </div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/10/11 parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<font face="Verdana">Since as argued below, in our
judgement, time is strategically of essense, some of
us would keep working on a posible text over today and
try to present something to IGC and BB by the end of
the day.... We do very much hope IGC and BB can sign
on it by consensus, but it doesnt happen we would open
it to organisations and people who want to sign it
(sorry, this is a practice I normally do not like so
much, but I dont think it is ok that we can produce a
statement to critique a UN process is just no time,
with all kind of ambiguous languages, and on such an
important - potential game changer - initiative from
a developing country, a paralysis seems to be setting
in)...<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></font>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Friday 11 October 2013 11:02 AM, parminder
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Well let then that be as it
has to be... "<span>There is <em>a tide</em> in
the <em>affairs of men</em>. Which, taken at
the flood, leads on to fortune"... </span><br>
<br>
Leadership doesnt come searching for you, you have
to seize it.... President Rousseff was made, what
would have perhaps been, somewhat a regular kind
of offer. She seized it with both her hands, even
announced the like month etc.. That is what gave
it such a sudden high prominence, and people are
celebrating Rousseff, and somewhere, if it plays
its cards well, Brazil have now got an edge....
which it can use to further its interest...<br>
<br>
Civil society also is supposed to be representing
some interests - real interests of real people,
who are most marginalised, and we have to take our
own responsibility seriously . We cannot be
eternally paralysed, which hurts these interests.
If there are real differences of views, well, that
counts.... But a permanent simple wait-and-watch
attitude would do us no good...<br>
<br>
Lets analyse what we have here.... Or what risks
we run and what gains we can make... And others
must also contribute what they think are risks or
advantages.... merely saying we are not sure yet,
tells talk more, do face to face and all,,,, Such
stuff I think, just my own view, is not the
appropriate response. <br>
<br>
ICANN, either on its own or tech community's
behalf tries to cosy up to the Brazilians (perhaps
in anticipation of the new proposal for
democratising global IG that Rousseff said Brazil
will soon present - BTW, the day of the annual
discussion on WSIS and IG issues in the UN GA is
22nd Oct, but whatever...) . It proposes a real
dialogue to see what needs to be changed about the
global governance of the Internet. Rousseff
immediately seizes the initiative, and even
declares a possible timeline, just like that,
off-hand.... That is leadership material. That is
all that has happened, and that is all anyone
knows has happened. There is nothing hidden that
civil society may suddenly become complicit to if
they support this proposal.<br>
<br>
In supporting it, we would only be saying - <br>
(1) yes, we agree that 'a real dialogue' on what
needs to change in global governance of the
Internet should take place with some urgency, <br>
(2) such a dialogue should take place in an open
and not a hidden manner, <br>
(3) it is certainly encouraging that the
initiative comes from one of the key developing
nations - the main votaries of a 'real change' -
and ICANN or the technical community - seen as the
main symbol and defender of status quo,and that <br>
(4) we want civil society to be equally there in
the middle of all action, as the dialogue shapes
and takes place...<br>
<br>
Nothing more and nothing less. (If anything
sinister about the proposed meeting surfaces at
any later time we can as publicly withdraw our
support, saying this is not at all what we
bargained for)<br>
<br>
So either people here agree to the above, and we
can write a statement, or they dont... This is the
time to do the statement, when people are still
wondering what kind of initiative it really is,
and with what implications. Throw in our hat - and
well, kind of make this thing somewhat trilateral
from its current bi-lateral status (Brazil - ICANN
tech community) We may not succeed, but we must
try. .... In a few weeks, the initiative would
already be too solidified in fact, or in people's
mind for civil society support to have this kind
of impact....<br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On Friday 11 October 2013 05:56 AM, Ian Peter
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">
<div>I agree with Deborah – lets wait till a
bit more information emerges. We can draft
a letter which is more meaningful when we
have a better idea of the scope,
objectives, possible outcomes, likely
attendees, and possible processes for the
conference. It’s quite likely more
information will emerge in the next week
or so, therefore I think we should discuss
at Bali and before then try to find out a
little more.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ian Peter</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="deborah@accessnow.org" href="mailto:deborah@accessnow.org" target="_blank">Deborah Brown</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 11,
2013 10:35 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="nnenna75@gmail.com" href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">Nnenna Nwakanma</a>
</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
RE: [bestbits] Rousseff &
Chehade: Brazil will host world
event on Internet governance in 2014</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal">
<div dir="ltr">Dear all,
<div> </div>
<div>I see the advantage of engaging
early on this, but I'm a bit concerned
that we are rushing unnecessarily to
finalize a letter before many of us
travel and are otherwise
overstretched. I wonder if it might
make more sense to continue this
discussion online and take advantage
of the in-person meetings in Bali, for
those of us attending, to develop a CS
agenda. Also, as others have pointed
out, we know so little about the
initiative at this point.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The draft text (available here: <a href="http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/Brazil2014" target="_blank">http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/Brazil2014</a>)
does not seem to capture the cautious
optimism that a number of people have
expressed. I also have concerns about
providing our "strongest endorsement"
of the Marco Civil process, when that
process is not yet complete. Of course
the text of the letter could change
dramatically in just a few hours ;)<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I find Nnenna's approach to be
sound, but it does imply a follow on
communication with more concrete
proposals. I wonder if it might be
more effective to streamline our
communication to the Brazilian
president and head of ICANN. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>To sum up, I see clear advantages
to both "striking while the iron is
hot" and a more cautious approach. But
given the factors I mentioned above, I
would support taking some extra time
if we need it. In any case, I'm
looking forward to hearing others'
ideas and continuing the discussion
around this important development. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best regards, <br>
Deborah </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 10,
2013 at 3:41 PM, Nnenna Nwakanma <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear all<br>
<br>
<ol>
<li>I do believe that if
any support there is,
from the civil society,
it is support for an
IDEA that "appears" more
open and inclusive that
the current IGF </li>
<li>So I am cautious about
writing a letter that
may be in any way
understood as "Civil
Society lauds Dilma and
ICANN's push". </li>
<li>A short letter
informing that global
Civil Society that are
working on, concerned
about and/or interested
in IG and Internet
issues intend to play
key roles in the summit.
</li>
<li>I believe we should
communicate key values
we plan to pursue in the
summit </li>
<li>Underline the central
idea of multistakeholder
participation </li>
<li>Say that we are
beginnning discussions
about the diverse roles
that CS can play and
that some time in Bali
will be dedicated to the
issue during the BB
meeting in Bali.<br>
<br>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
If we recall, workshop 127 in
Bali will be discussing the MS
Selection processes, and I do
hope, personally that we can
use that opportunity to
sharpen the focus. A reminder
of the WS is on <a href="http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/wks2013/workshop_2013_status_list_view.php?xpsltipq_je=127" target="_blank">http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/wks2013/workshop_2013_status_list_view.php?xpsltipq_je=127</a><br>
<br>
</div>
I am traveling in unconnected
rural areas but will be back
online and I'm happy to
contribute language if any text
begins to surface. In case I do
not, here are my ideas:<br>
</div>
<ol>
<li>Say what exactly it is the
global CS is supporting, which
is the idea, and not the
institutions </li>
<li>Make a clear statement on
our willingness to engage </li>
<li>Recall that our engagement
is based on the
Multistakeholder principle </li>
<li>Inform that discussions have
started and are ongoing </li>
<li>Say we will be coming up
with ore concrete engagement
proposals </li>
<li>Requesto have fundamental
info, if available, to help us
scope the idea itself.</li>
</ol>
<p>Best</p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p> </p>
<p>Nnenna<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at
7:01 PM, Joana Varon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joana@varonferraz.com" target="_blank">joana@varonferraz.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear
people, <br>
<br>
</div>
For the level
of information
I have (which
is basically:
Brazil and
ICANN have
proposed to
host a Summit
on Internet
after April -
coincidentally
or right after
the meeting on
Sharm el Sheik
and before the
presidential
elections
period), I
don't feel
comfortable
about writing
a letter
congratulating
for something
I dont really
know what it
is. <br>
<br>
</div>
But I do truly
support Anja's
suggestion to
start working
on our agenda
online and,
with a
potential to
be much
richer, during
our several
meetings in
Bali. (what do
we want from
all this
besides
participating
in the
Summit??) <br>
<br>
</div>
In the
meanwhile, I
rather take
breath to
understand and
discuss this
with the
Brazilian
government and
Brazilian
colleagues from
civil society or
other sectors.
And see what is
the final draft
of Marco Civil
that the
government will
bring to our
table very soon
(if it truly
endorses all the
principles she
has mentioned at
the UNGA). <br>
<br>
</div>
I'm sorry if it's
a bit of a skeptic
or over cautious
position, but I
really need more
inputs to see the
big picture. <br>
<div> </div>
<div>All the best<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
joana<br>
</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Oct 10,
2013 at 2:59
PM, michael
gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">+1<br>
<br>
M<br>
<div><br>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
On Behalf Of
Carlos A.
Afonso<br>
Sent:
Thursday,
October 10,
2013 10:12 AM<br>
To: McTim<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
michael
gurstein; Lee
W McKnight;
Rafik<br>
Dammak; Joana
Varon;
<,<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>>,;
NCSG List<br>
Subject: Re:
[governance]
RE: [bestbits]
Rousseff &
Chehade:
Brazil will<br>
host world
event on
Internet
governance in
2014<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Dear
compa McT,<br>
<br>
You being a
rigorous
techie, maybe
you will not
change your
logical
view...<br>
:) And I
understand
there is a lot
of people in
all sectors
who feel<br>
disturbed by
the emerging
presence of
Brazil and its
concrete
proposals to<br>
finally move
on.<br>
<br>
At the very
beginning Fadi
describes the
motivation --
Rousseff's
statement<br>
at the UN, her
clear
adherence to
the basic
principles
most of civil
society<br>
defends (which
she has
repeated
several times
in her radio
program and
her<br>
twitter
@dilmabr), and
her proposal
to build a
planetary
framework of<br>
rights. This
did not come
out of the
blue, from a
meeting of IP
addressers<br>
in a wonderful
city called
Montevideo. Do
you think Fadi
just dropped
by the<br>
presidential
door in
Brasilia,
knocked and
entered to
sell that
proposal? :)<br>
<br>
Anyway, it is
relevant to
understand
that this is
not a proposal
for yet<br>
another Icann
meeting, or a
reedition of
the UN
chatting space
called IGF,<br>
as both Dilma
and Fadi made
it very clear.
It is a major
achievement
that<br>
that
motivation
brought Icann
to colead this
effort jointly
with BR.<br>
<br>
All the more
so because, as
you know,
there are
strong sectors
within the<br>
government who
would love to
bring the
root-zone to
the purview of
the ITU,<br>
who hate
Icann, who do
not like the
pluriparticipative
model of
governance<br>
we defend, and
who are
basically
associated
with the
transnational
telecom<br>
oligopoly
which controls
the main
networks in
BR.<br>
Dilma is
courageously
up against a
huge wall
here, to
defend those<br>
principles,
and receiving
Fadi and
emerging from
the meeting
with thar<br>
proposal was a
major
political
milestone for
her in those
internal
disputes<br>
as well.<br>
<br>
[] fraterno<br>
<br>
--c.a.<br>
<br>
On 10/10/2013
10:14 AM,
McTim wrote:<br>
> At 55
seconds in,
Fadi says:<br>
> "Her
Excellency
President
Rousseff has
accepted our
invitation
that we<br>
> hold next
year a Global
Summit"<br>
><br>
> Seem
fairly clear
to me.<br>
><br>
> On Thu,
Oct 10, 2013
at 9:10 AM,
Carlos A.
Afonso <<a href="mailto:ca@cafonso.ca" target="_blank">ca@cafonso.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> McT,
maybe you
should watch
the video a
few times
more... :)<br>
>><br>
>>
--c.a.<br>
>><br>
>> On
10/10/2013
09:57 AM,
McTim wrote:<br>
>>>
On Wed, Oct 9,
2013 at 11:50
PM, michael
gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
>>>>
Why so
pessimistic
and cynical
everyone.. I
may be wrong
but this<br>
>>>>
isn't just
about ICANN,
although hats
off to Fadi
for getting
this<br>
</div>
</div>
>>>>
going and
putting that
into play.<br>
<div>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
I'm not
pessimistic or
cynical.<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
But I would be
extremely
surprised if
the Pres. of
Brazil is
going<br>
>>>>
to invite the
world to Rio
in April next
year to
discuss names
and<br>
>>>>
numbers.
Rather my
reading is
that she is
by-passing the
quite<br>
>>>>
evident
log-jam at the
ITU, the
frivolities of
the IGF, the
now<br>
>>>>
discredited
"Internet
Freedom"
crusade and
the status quo
which it<br>
</div>
>>>>
was intended
to cast into
concrete errr.
(non) rules
and regs.<br>
<div>
<div>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
It appears to
me, after
watching the
video again
several times
that<br>
>>>
it is ICANN
(and I assume
the rest of
the
Montevideoans)
that are<br>
>>>
spearheading
this. In
other words
the idea of
the Summit
comes from<br>
>>>
the T&A
folks, not
Brasilia.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>-- <br>
-- <br>
<br>
Joana Varon
Ferraz<br>
@joana_varon<br>
PGP 0x016B8E73<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div> </div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif">Deborah
Brown</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif">Senior
Policy Analyst</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif">Access | <a href="http://accessnow.org" target="_blank">accessnow.org</a></font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif"><a href="http://rightscon.org" target="_blank">rightscon.org</a></font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif">@deblebrown</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px"><font face="garamond, serif">PGP
0x5EB4727D</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>