<div dir="ltr">I must leave it to the Brazilians to explain how their process actually worked or did not work. But I must just say this about our never-explicitly-defined term "multistakeholderism": In my 30 years of experience trying to pass or stop legislation in a generally "democratic" set of processes in the U.S., I have always found the process to be messy, excessively influenced by those with money and undue power, and manipulated for political purpose by whatever powers can assert themselves. It is a dirty process, often described as "making sausage." If that is what the Brazilians have been complaining about until now, it is no different than what happens in most so-called democracies, and I find it hard to reject that process as not adequately within the general aspiration for an open multistakeholder policy debate. Ultimately, in the world we live in, it the governments that make the decisions. The question for me is whether the process has been open and transparent enough to be viewed as progress compared to more autocratic decisionmaking structure.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Avri Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I am sorry.<br>
<br>
I was satisfied with the previous version and was happy we had something supportable until the last minute changes<br>
<br>
But after hearing for months, on this list and elsewhere, about how the Marco Civil had been hijacked by the government and altered, even if it started as a multistakeholder process, I do not beleive we should endorse that process.<br>
<br>
So while I favored the supporting language, I do not accept anything that can show that Civil society is fine with Government driven processes that can be hijacked by the government.<br>
<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
On 26 Sep 2013, at 08:47, Norbert Bollow wrote:<br>
<br>
> [With IGC coordinator hat on]<br>
><br>
> Since Avri is objecting, we now don't have consensus.<br>
><br>
> Since we don't have time for a rough consensus call (which according to<br>
> the charter requires at least 48 hours) this means that unless Avri<br>
> withdraws her objection, IGC won't endorse the letter.<br>
><br>
> Greetings,<br>
> Norbert<br>
><br>
><br>
> Am Thu, 26 Sep 2013 08:37:53 -0400<br>
> schrieb Carolina <<a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
><br>
>> Hi Avri,<br>
>> I think your conclusion about what we (Brazilians) say/think is not<br>
>> totally correct. The issue around Marco Civil is much more complex.<br>
>> It does have really good text and principles. There are some<br>
>> contentious issues, including ISP liability, NN and data retention<br>
>> and mirroring, but still is a exemplary bill and process. I would be<br>
>> happy to chat with you by Skype and go over all such issues and map<br>
>> how the actors are around these are in Brazil. Best, Carolina<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>><br>
>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Hi,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Re[sectifully disagree.<br>
>>><br>
>>> We went through months of messages in various list of how the<br>
>>> process for the Marco Civil had left the Civil Society and the CGI<br>
>>> behind. Until this letter, everything I was hearing from<br>
>>> Brazilians was how bad Marco Civil was. Now we have a situation<br>
>>> where several countries have joined the list of countries gone<br>
>>> rouge and civil society is willing to go back to government run<br>
>>> models.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I disagree with the letter as currently changed, though I had<br>
>>> supported it before the change.<br>
>>><br>
>>> avri<br>
>>><br>
>>> On 26 Sep 2013, at 08:20, Norbert Bollow wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> [with IGC coordinator hat on]<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If I'm reading this right, this discussion seems to have arrived at<br>
>>>> what may be a consensus text. Congratulations!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'd like to request that as soon as the draft text is believed to<br>
>>>> have stabilized, one of the drafters post a complete copy of the<br>
>>>> text, as the basis for a formal IGC consensus call.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Greetings,<br>
>>>> Norbert<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> I agree...<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Thanks for an excellent and quick, Joana.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Parminder, we reached our deadline of 9am in BRA. Lets proceed<br>
>>>>>> with the endorsements, ok?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Marco civil is on item 2. We could add something like this<br>
>>>>>> yellow part about the process:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> 2. Stress the importance of the timely adoption of the Brazilian<br>
>>>>>> Draft Bill<br>
>>>>>> of Internet Rights (Marco Civil da Internet) in a way that<br>
>>>>>> upholds these principles and endorses the innovative and<br>
>>>>>> democratic process in which it was conceived.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:35 PM, parminder<br>
>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Joana<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I am fine if I am explained why marco process cannot be<br>
>>>>>>> mentioned as bring<br>
>>>>>>> a part of Brazilian IG scene that should be promoted... I<br>
>>>>>>> understand that<br>
>>>>>>> this process is also deliberative while being consensus seeking.<br>
>>>>>>> Marco Civil process is a big and a happy part of the Brazilian<br>
>>>>>>> IG scene, why should bwe not mention it.<br>
>>>>>>> parminder<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Thursday 26 September 2013 04:57 PM, Joana Varon wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Dear Parminder,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Considering the support from the others, this is as far as we<br>
>>>>>>> could go:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 4. Reinforce our support for the Brazilian multistakeholder<br>
>>>>>>> model for Internet governance lead by CGI.br.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Im happy you see CGI model as the whole model to be extended to<br>
>>>>>>> the world.<br>
>>>>>>> And we can chat a lot about it. Indeed, its a very good starting<br>
>>>>>>> point. But<br>
>>>>>>> it still have its problems, as every innovative way of deal with<br>
>>>>>>> things. In<br>
>>>>>>> fact, this letter has also the goal to straighten CGI political<br>
>>>>>>> power as endorsing it as a legitim intent. So, for the purpose<br>
>>>>>>> if this and for wider consensus lets stay at this point, ok?<br>
>>>>>>> The part of marco civil is already mentioned in previous<br>
>>>>>>> paragraphs.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> We shall publish it now at BB for collecting signatures as time<br>
>>>>>>> is passing<br>
>>>>>>> by. Will come up with a link asap. Hope u could help with the<br>
>>>>>>> outreach.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Thanks once again for all the inputs, collaboration and<br>
>>>>>>> insights.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Best.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Joana<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013 1:00 PM, "Suresh Ramasubramanian"<br>
>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> The text is fine as it is.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Do any other members of the caucus feel strongly about changing<br>
>>>>>>>> point 4?<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> --srs (htc one x)<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On 26 September 2013 4:00:48 PM Joana Varon wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Ops, just saw Parminder's emails with direct suggestions. So<br>
>>>>>>>> could we go<br>
>>>>>>>> for:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> 4. Reinforce our support for the Brazilian multistakeholder<br>
>>>>>>>> model for Internet governance lead by CGI.br.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Joana Varon<br>
>>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:joana@varonferraz.com">joana@varonferraz.com</a>>wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Louis and Parminder,<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Until now you were the only ones that didnt agree fully with<br>
>>>>>>>>> the texto,<br>
>>>>>>>>> due to paragraph 4. From what I've got:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> - Parminder has a stronger take that THE Brazilian model<br>
>>>>>>>>> should be extended to the world.<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> - Louis said that we should remove that mention on the text.<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Before we start drafting the text, the issue about of<br>
>>>>>>>>> multilateral vs multistakeholderism was raised and we came to<br>
>>>>>>>>> a conclusion that though its<br>
>>>>>>>>> not the time to criticize this specific point of Dilma's<br>
>>>>>>>>> speech, we should<br>
>>>>>>>>> reinforce our support for developing models for a<br>
>>>>>>>>> multistakeholder approach<br>
>>>>>>>>> on IG, also having CGI experiences as a inspiration.<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Having in mind that for a broader endorsement we need to reach<br>
>>>>>>>>> this middle ground, would you be fine with the actual version<br>
>>>>>>>>> or want to submit<br>
>>>>>>>>> changes in the language that don't affect this (middle ground)<br>
>>>>>>>>> meaning?<br>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for the understanding.<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> best<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> joana<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Louis Pouzin (well)<br>
>>>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:pouzin@well.com">pouzin@well.com</a>>wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> IMHO it would be better without parag 4.<br>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Louis<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> btw, for those not living there, local brazilian time is<br>
>>>>>>>>>> UTC-3<br>
>>>>>>>>>> - - -<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> On 26 September 2013 7:14:17 AM Joana Varon wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please, find a reduced version below. We are closing the pad<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> now to avoid more crazy joined editing processes. Thanks for<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> all the contributions.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's receive final comments about very punctual changes or<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> major disagreements and gaps until tomorrow (Thursday) 9:00<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> am (Brazilian time).<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then collect endorsements through out the day.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Deadline for signatures will be this Thursday night, let's<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> say 22:00, also Brazilian time*. So Carlos can deliver it<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> in hand to President Dilma. *<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> thanks once again,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> joana<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Letter from** International C**ivil Society**<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Organizations** **to President Dilma Rousseff in support of<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> her **statement at **the 68th Session of the **UNGA *<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your Excellency,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> We, the undersigned organizations and individuals from<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> around the world, committed to the development of the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet and its use for advancing social and economic<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> justice, would like to express our strong support for the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> statement delivered this week by your Excellency<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> at the 68th Session of the United Nations General Assembly.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> We commend you for taking a leading role on these issues and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> would like to:<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Fully endorse the five principles enunciated on the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> occasion, in clear accordance with the Brazilian Internet<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Steering Committee*'*s* *Principles<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> for the Governance and Use of the Internet.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Stress the importance of the timely adoption of the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brazilian Draft Bill of Internet Rights (Marco Civil da<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet) in a way that<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> upholds these principles.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Commend the courage of Brazil in expressing disapproval<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> and demanding explanations from the USA about the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> procedures of illegal interception of information and<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> data, framing it as a grave violation of<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> human rights and of civil liberties<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> 4.* *Reinforce our support for an extension into broader<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> spheres of Internet Governance of the experiences from the<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brazilian multistakeholder model of Internet governance, led<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> by CGI.br, which comprises representatives from Government,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scientific and TechnologyCommunity,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> private sector and Civil Society on an equal footing.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> We express our deep appreciation for your serious commitment<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> to social justice and development, of which an open, stable,<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> and reliable<br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet is a fundamental pillar.<br>
>>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>>> Signatories:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> Joana Varon Ferraz<br>
>>>>>>>>> @joana_varon<br>
>>>>>>>>> PGP 0x016B8E73<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Joana Varon Ferraz<br>
>>>>>>>> @joana_varon<br>
>>>>>>>> PGP 0x016B8E73<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________<br>
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>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Joana Varon Ferraz<br>
>>>>>> @joana_varon<br>
>>>>>> PGP 0x016B8E73<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>