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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Monday 09 September 2013 10:27 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:522D5541.6070600@itforchange.net" type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 30 August 2013 01:30 PM,
Adam Peake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:0791D4A9-7690-469D-B2E1-775D5AA5CB62@glocom.ac.jp"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Carlos,
I did not say there were rules. I did not suggest that a WG members's organization could not/should not submit a contribution; on the contrary I would expect organizations like APC, IT For Change (ISOC, ICANN, etc etc) to submit comments, and hope they do. But I am uncomfortable with a WGEC member shopping around such contributions so they become a statement of some stakeholder group or sub-set of (and I guess by association imbued with some greater weight etc.) </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Adam<br>
<br>
We at IT for Change firmly believe that the legitimacy of civil
society depends on the representative</blockquote>
<br>
representation , not representation... sorry <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:522D5541.6070600@itforchange.net" type="cite">
that it brings to the table. A position developed through wide
consultaitons and drawing wide support, especially from
organisations that have clear demonstrated links with marginalised
groups, should indeed be seen with that 'greater weight' it
carries. What you disparagingly call as 'shopping around' is what
we in advocacy call as consultation, networking and constituency
building. <br>
<br>
The proposed joint statement was developed over a long period,
with intensive consultations and support building, for instance
see <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/civil_society_statement_on_democratic_internet">the
joint statement</a> by more 60 organisations to the May 2012
CSTD consultations on EC, which statement is explicitly quoted in
the present one, and the proposed position on new mechanisms built
from it. This earlier statement, and IT for Change's earlier work,
statements, network of supporters etc were all listed in detail in
the nomination form submitted to the civil society nomination
process for the WGEC membership and the CSTD chair, on the basis
of which I understand I was selected to be a part of the WG on
enhanced cooperation.<br>
<br>
Everything proposed in the new statement has often been discussed
(at least attempted to be discussed) on the IGC list... Even after
the questionnaire was issued, I have tried to trigger discussion
on the EC issue on this list and other CS lists... I fully
participated in the BestBits sub list that did some degree of
discussion on this subject - proposing, discussing, taking inputs
on and responding to precisely the kind of proposals that find
place in the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/civil_society_input_to_the_UN_Working_Group_for_global_governance_of_the_Internet">final
statement</a>. These proposals were discussed widely in the last
few weeks, and changed considerably owing to inputs from several
people, including those on this list. I have repeatedly written on
many people to provide inputs/ comments even if, for whatever
reason, they are unable to support the basic positions in this
statement. <br>
<br>
So, no Adam, this is not 'shopping around'. This is what we do in
civil society to make connections, and gather legitimacy. We do
not believe that just anyone who can get travel money and is able
to ingratiate oneself with those in high places is a legitimate
civil society rep at policy bodies like the WGEC. Any civil
society representative at such bodies should be able to demonsrate
her/ his linkages to various constituencies, most of all of
marginalised groups, and constantly renew these linkages, and feed
off them. That is what we are doing. <br>
<br>
My colleague Anita said at Paris WSIS forum closing session,
"Multistakeholderism is a framework and means of engagement, it is
not a means of legitimization. Legitimization comes from people,
from work with and among people." We take this principle rather
seriously.... Unfortunately, in the IG space a lot of people have
begun to believe that if they have good relations with higher up
in what may be called as the 'multistakeholder space' and can keep
getting support and good words from the business sector, technical
community, and well, developed country gov guys, you have made it.
No, that does not make one civil society. One needs to to connect,
and connect continuously, to people 'down there'...<br>
<br>
(BTW, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/civil_society_input_to_the_UN_Working_Group_for_global_governance_of_the_Internet_signatories">this
is the list</a> of 43 organisations and many more individuals
that have supported the position prepared by IT for Change as an
input to the WG on Enhanced cooperation.... This position still
remains open for discussion, and we are taking inputs for it. )<br>
<br>
This said, civil society members who do enter committees and
working groups etc know pretty well their responsibilities as
members of such official groups, and so do I. I have taken note of
your, Avir's and Bill's comments. I have responded to most of them
above. As to Bill's proposal that I excuse myself when other civil
society proposals are being discussed, I dont consider it
appropriate. All WG members will discuss all of the proposals,
being full cognizant of their roles as WG members. Also, almost
all WG members would have submitted their own proposals. The two
activities are not contradictory, or exclusive. <br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:0791D4A9-7690-469D-B2E1-775D5AA5CB62@glocom.ac.jp"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Please relax, read what people have to say. We are still allowed opinions I hope.
Thanks,
Adam
On Aug 30, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Avri, I respect your position, of course.
My understanding is that we are in the WGEC (like some of us were in the
WGIG) because we are expected to bring to the dialogue what we think are
the views of the stakeholders we are supposed to represent, and I think
the questionnaire is a good (although imperfect) instrument to help
convey these views. So, even if WGEC members themselves decided to
respond and provide their views, I would welcome it.
Thus, I do not agree we should exclude the organizations we are related
to from this survey, and this is the position of several other
participants who are helping to build institutional responses to the
questionnaire.
fraternal regards
--c.a.
On 08/29/2013 04:17 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
I do not know Adam's reasons.
I know my own reasons for not doing so.
I think that in order to the job in WGEC as I feel I should do it, I should not be arguing for responses I have crafted, but rather should be taking the input from others who are commenting, and from the respective and understanding I bring, do the analysis. For myself I beleive that if I contributed to the writing of several proposals I would risk my objectivity in taking the work of others and treating it fairly in the context of WGEC. I also beleive that my contributions in the WGEC might be colored, as if arguments I would make in the WGEC were just a bolstering of opinions I had put before the group in many other ways.
I am speaking only for myself and the way I think such appointments should be handled. This is why I avoided active participation in any of the several efforts I might have engaged in.
You are right, there was no rule. I am just doing the job in the best way I know how. I have followed this process many time before and find it works for me.
avri
On 29 Aug 2013, at 13:57, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi people, as a member of WGEC, I do not recall any decision that would
preclude its members' organizations from presenting their responses to
the questionnaire. As is well known, WGEC (like the MAG) members are
there in their personal capacities as members of stakeholder groups, not
as reps or "ambassadors" of their respective organizations. Where did
you get this from, Adam?
fraternal regards
--c.a.
On 08/29/2013 08:07 AM, Adam Peake wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
On Aug 29, 2013, at 7:17 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
Perhaps he was referring to the statement Parminder is sending around looking for support. It is perhaps confusing having two statements in circulation: one by the Best Bits and one by Parminder who is a participant in both the Best Bits collective and a member of the WGEC.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Yes, not so good when working group members are advising themselves in this way, multiple ways. The IT for Change position makes many unsubstantiated claims, and again repeats that the Internet is a global commons, which it clearly is not (what's the point of engaging in honest debate on this list if ignored for the sake of some political doctrine?) And bestbits, which I personally disagree with enough not to be able to support, but it much more thoughtful, but is also somewhat undermined by having WG members as authors. Poor process.
Adam
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">avri
On 28 Aug 2013, at 06:57, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 27/08/2013, at 12:13 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"><suresh@hserus.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 27-Aug-2013, at 7:21, Jeremy Malcolm <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org"><jeremy@ciroap.org></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Although the Caucus is a little fractured at the moment, Norbert and Sala might nevertheless wish to gauge the feeling of the Caucus towards signing on corporately.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">It would help gain broader consensus if the worst bits of that statement were removed.
Bringing ICANN under UN oversight, really?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Since there is nothing in the submission that suggests that, I have to ask, did you read it?
--
Dr Jeremy Malcolm
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