<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Parminder, my late grandmother used to say that a person with jaundice thinks the whole world is colored yellow.</div><div><br></div><div>Your statement that "every attempt has been made to browbeat us to shut up" reminded me of what she used to say - and I thank you for that, it has been about a decade since she passed on.</div><div> </div><div>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 07-Sep-2013, at 14:34, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 14 August 2013 07:33 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:520B8E20.2020002@itforchange.net" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 14 August 2013 03:19 PM,
Bertrand de La Chapelle wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAGF_KH8bNkA5kcNaTzZQBWT9aBPvJvzG_obTTipCbc_Wx1pUSw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You will excuse me, but I do not intend to engage in a
long exchange on this.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sorry Bertrand, I cant excuse you. You made a sweeping personal
accusation and I ask you to justify it with some instances. You
will have to do that. There is no escape or excusing. Ok, let me
give you another way. You can do this off-list to me with cocos
cc-ed, or include a wider group of all earlier co cos. But you
cant get away with making personal characterisations on the list
and then not justifying, what in default will be, your most
objectionable conduct. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Bertrand<br>
<br>
It is almost a month now and you have'nt reverted with the basis of
making the personal allegation you made - even one instance, for you
to justify your allegation, and I quote " <font face="arial,
sans-serif"> I resent (referring to me) your becoming one of the
main sources of ad hominem attack on this list</font>. " and at
another place<br>
<br>
"<font face="arial, sans-serif">yourself frequently attribute
ulterior motives to other people's comments just because of their
alleged political preferences, ties to certain types of actors
(for instance business), geographical origin, lack of civil
society purity, etc"....<br>
<br>
As I said, this is unacceptable. You cant do what you wish on this
list, and that goes for some others here as well... Although you
havent been able to offer one example of an inappropriate comment
by me, within 3 weeks before our above exchange at least two other
people made such comments about me, Anriette (that I have a
tendency to twist words, in an attempt to score political points)
and Avri (that people dont enter into discussion with me with a
fear of starting a flame war). And this follows numerous similar
barbs for a long long period. So this is my short response to all
three of you, that while my normal way is to do just enough so
that you feel a bit of pinch to think a little before you do such
a thing again, I will let it go this time. But not again. So
consider yourself forewarned.<br>
<br>
It is utterly tasteless for me to be doing interactions of this
kind with people like you. But I wont just run away from here
becuase so many of you want me to do so. Yes, Daniel Pimienta
withdrew, and I assure many others did like him, as one coping
strategy for what has come of this group, that was initially set
up during the WSIS in a framework of global WSIS civil society
with lofty ideals of working for marginalised and left-outs of the
world. I have chosen a different path. I will stay and fight. And
I would not allow you to write a one-sided compromised history of
IG civil society, and of this group. <br>
<br>
No, this group is not dead because of any particular bad
behaviour, it is in this shape because some of us stood up to
blatant attempts by the likes of you to turn this place into
something that would facilitate, in Daniel's words ,"</font><font face="arial, sans-serif">allowing multistakeholderism to perform
smoothly" and which trend may "</font><font face="arial,
sans-serif">transform us (organized civil society) in the
unwilling accomplices of many bad actions performed in our field".
<br>
<br>
Every attempt has been made to browbeat us to shut up - one of the
most powerful device being, making frequent allegations of poor
behaviour... Bertrand, down here in the world of activism we know
these tactics only too well to be afraid of them. But yes, the
chilling effect does have some traction... Effective conditions
have been created here, on this list, that, except for a very few
people, the cost of speaking a word against the US government, big
business companies, ICANN etc is considered too high. This is what
your kind have done to the list/ group.<br>
<br>
No, it is not that you dont like it because of 'how' I react to
your emails, but becuase 'of ''what' I react with to your
formulations like multistakeholder funding (which I really see
only as adding corporate funding to core policy spaces which is
otherwise unmentionable in democratic practice) and ideas like of
self-organising issue-based governance systems, which is simply
often no governance, other than the kind that most powerful actors
with the most resources of various kinds can summon at will
(London to Budapest to Seoul Cyber space conferences ??) . Such
systems work against the interests of the most marginalised who
are incapable of organising just-in-time governance
mechanisms..... Such kinds as I provided are valid criticisms
coming from long established democractic theory. And I have no
intention to run away and make this space safe for practising
anti-democratic kind of MSism. This is what you hate - and on a
simple self-reflection you are smart enough to realize that. <br>
<br>
Whatever, but dont transgress the limits again. I know being in
powerful places can rub off some haughtiness on almost anyone,
even if unthinkingly, but I would think that you are a careful and
long-term operator, so hope that you will take the cue.<br>
<br>
It is fortunate that you chose to breach what I thought was
otherwise mutually respectful relationship we have had since WSIS
days. I would have let is pass, but there is just too much of
politics hidden below it, and while I can leave aside personal
issues, I dont shrink from my political duties. And hence these
emails. I do really feel bad that I had to say things here that ,
I know, </font><font face="arial, sans-serif">would </font><font face="arial, sans-serif">hurt you. I would have really hoped youd
be careful enough.<br>
<br>
Regret-fully, and still with regards, <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
</font><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:520B8E20.2020002@itforchange.net" type="cite">
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAGF_KH8bNkA5kcNaTzZQBWT9aBPvJvzG_obTTipCbc_Wx1pUSw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> I have said what I felt.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
:) . I can assure you Bertrand, if it comes to that, and I have to
say what I myself feel about some people who have been going
around expressing their feelings openly, it will be fully as I
really feel. The normal rule of public behaviour, especially on
elists like this, however, is that even if you get some negative
feelings about a person as such, beyond just his/ her arguments,
dont bring it out publicly. You know what happens; if one
consistently doesnt like the political view point of another, it
can begin to tend towards personal dislike as well. Just a
psychological fact. Not a good thing but that is how often it is.
But one has to control oneself in public and stick to discussing
issues rather than people. You (and some others) have broken that
rule, and you must justify it. You can disagree as violently with
a viewpoint as you want, but dont target the person. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAGF_KH8bNkA5kcNaTzZQBWT9aBPvJvzG_obTTipCbc_Wx1pUSw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> I think it is time to move forward and not waste
people's time that could be devoted to something more
useful. One can survive with egos bruised.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I can survive with bruised ego, but not with people having
exercised power over me... I have a gut reaction against bowing to
power. Maybe an activist's normal training. <i><b>For me this is
a political act.</b></i> Especially on this political field of
this elist. The manner in which some members here think that they
have superior rights than others to pass judgements, and others
should then simply move on....... It cant be accepted. It wont be.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAGF_KH8bNkA5kcNaTzZQBWT9aBPvJvzG_obTTipCbc_Wx1pUSw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> It's a proof of moral strength and willingness to work
for the common good. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your response below however seems to imply you have
little desire to help calm things down, let alone recognize
when your attitude may hurt others. If you are looking for a
confrontation, I regret it but will not be the sparring
partner you are looking for. Flame wars are not my cup of
tea. Besides, I am now on well deserved holidays and intend
to enjoy them. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We will have other opportunities to address this in
person in the coming months, if the grudge persists after a
few weeks. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For now, I wish you and the list a very happy month of
August and a good preparation of what awaits us in
September.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best as always</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bertrand</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:49 AM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Bertrand,<br>
<br>
Pl see inline. <br>
<div class="im"> <br>
<div>On Friday 09 August 2013 06:46 PM, Bertrand de La
Chapelle wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have stopped posting on this list for a
quite some time now for exactly the reasons that
Avri has mentioned. And as one of the people who
were at the origin of the creation of this very
list and caucus to empower civil society, I am
extremely saddened by the way it is currently
evolving and indeed becoming irrelevant.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I nonetheless feel compelled to react to the
most recent exchange. You wrote: "<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><i>Ad
hominem is when one says something like "you
tend to twist people's words in order to
score political points</i>"".</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to differ. <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"<i>You
tend to twist people's words in order to
score political points</i>" is NOT an ad
hominem attack (see Wikipedia) because it does
not use your behavior to weaken a specific
argument of yours. It is rather a judgement </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">about
your behavior, about whether you display (or
not) the necessary fairness in representing
somebody else's position. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">To
illustrate the point: </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">An ad
hominem attack, would be for instance: "This
person is usually lying, hence, when they
(really) say A, this must not be true".
However, </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">if
someone says A and another person says: "this
person said B and therefore this person is
wrong and should be condemned", this IS
twisting people's words. In this case, you
are basically saying: Anriette did not
explicitly denounce something, therefore she
supports it. This is putting words in somebody
else's mouth. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">To be frank, I
understand the tactic of discarding as an ad
hominem attack a judgment about your behavior
to avoid having to respond to it or ask
yourself whether it is true. But it would be
more credible if you did not yourself
frequently attribute ulterior motives to other
people's comments just because of their
alleged political preferences, ties to certain
types of actors (for instance business),
geographical origin, lack of civil society
purity, etc... </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">This behavior
is harming the civility of discourse on this
list and actually weakening its influence in
the global debate. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">I
always respect your expressing positions, even
when I disagree with them and engage in
debates with you. </span><font face="arial,
sans-serif">But I resent your becoming one of
the main sources of ad hominem attack on this
list. </font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
I have many things to say about your email, but for the
present, would you be so good as to provide instances to
substantiate your above sweeping statement(s). You have
made some serious allegations against a civil society
colleague with whom you have worked for around 8 years
now. I sincerely hope you would not shrink from standing
your ground on this, and not slip away.
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">There
are moments when one must call a spade a
spade.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Quite true. In fact I am considering availing some such
moments presently. Although this current 'controversy'
really arose from an incident of calling a spade a
spade, however mildly - a spade that laid in full view
of the list members, in the text of emails exchanged on
the list. <br>
<br>
regards<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> I
wish the co-coordinators of this list </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">had
called your attitude to accountability
earlier, for the sake of a sound debate.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">This
is below you. You have more to
contribute. </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Respectfully
still.</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
Bertrand</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 4, 2013
at 8:37 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>
On Friday 02 August 2013 02:39 PM, Avri
Doria wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">On
31 Jul 2013, at 09:33, parminder
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">ad
hominem comment<br>
</blockquote>
(to misquote an old IETF adage -
comments made wearing asbestos -<br>
i tried to ignore this the first time
hoping it would just go away and we
could all get back to rational calm
conversations)<br>
<br>
an ad hominem attack would be an
attack that: because someone is a
bully, their views are
illegitimate/irrelevant.<br>
It does not include the content of
calling a bully a bully.<br>
<br>
I am not sure I have ever heard an ad
hominem attack on this list.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Then you are not quite right in your
understanding of what is ad hominem.
Literally, attack against man, it occurs
when, in a discussion, someone attacks a
person's character or personal traits,
instead of, and with a view to undermine,
her/ his argument. You are making a
specious distinction above that does not
hold. In middle of a discussion, personal
attacks are almost always made - certainly
in conditions like of this list, where
people otherwise have little or no offline
relationship and thus no particular reason
for animosity - with a view to undermine
that person's argument.<br>
<br>
On the other hand there is indeed some
difference between just an allegation and
an ad hominem attack.<br>
<br>
Saying something like , to stick to
present case of Anriette's email to me,
'you are twisting my words' is an
allegation. (Allegations themselves could
become quite serious, like you are
deceiving, lying, cheating etc, whereby
they may be tending towards ad hominem.)<br>
<br>
, Ad hominem is when one says something
like "you tend to twist people's words in
order to score political points". That is
attacking someone in terms of ones
character and personal traits, and as in
this case, obviously to distract from the
argument made - which in this case what
that Anriette seemed to see nothing wrong
or new with the Indonesian document, which
I said was problematic to me for a CS rep
on the MAG to say, which is just my view.
Nothing personal here.
<div> <br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">For
example a comment one might hear: X is
a terrible bully, but sometimes, if
you can get past the bullying, X makes
a lot of sense.<br>
Another comment one might hear: I
think I agree with what X is saying,
but X is such a bully I am afraid that
if I put my agreement in the wrong way
I will get beat up for it.<br>
<br>
One could also say, I agree with a lot
of what CX says, but X is just so
mean.<br>
<br>
(I have versions of all of these about
certain unnamed IGC participants)<br>
<br>
Those you accuse of ad hominem attacks
against you, are among the greatest
defenders off-list of some of the
positions you represent.<br>
Many of us disagree with you but would
never dare say so on the list for fear
of starting a flame war.<br>
Many of the rest of us just try to
hunker down and wait for the storm to
pass.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
BTW, it is ad hominen whether the attack
on one's character is made directly or
rather more subtly. Your above statements
themselves tends towards such an ad
hominem attack, and you have very often
said such things about me. And I claim you
say it to undermine my arguments rather
than anything else. However, I would give
you an opportunity to disprove my claim.
And I hope you will take this challenge.
Please point out the precise language in
the current exchange over the last few
days that you find problematic in my
emails, that is something other than a
critique of someone's views, that I have a
right to make, and rather of the nature of
a personal attack. Please just give even
one example. You may even go back further
to earlier emails, becuase from the above
it appears you are a very good record
keeping and retrieval methods. Ok, I
promise, I will not argue with the
example/ instance you provide, I wont even
respond, I just want it to out for
everyone to see, rather that your be
subject to your insinuations.
<div> <br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Someone/everyone,
please stop the venom.<br>
It has rendered the IGC nearly
irrelevant.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
I have a different theory of what has
rendered IGC irrelevant, which I am ready
to enter a discussion about.
<div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">When
the IGC is discussed, pretty much the
main content is the outrageousness of
a few individuals.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Certainly, I do often express strong
feelings on some views - not people, never
- that I feel strongly about. (And the
fact is that there enough degree of
difference in views on this list that at
times one side and at other times the
other side will feel strongly about
things.) But, never against any person as
such, unlike what I am almost regularly
subjected to. Again, I am open to be given
an instance to prove my statement wrong.
As for personal attacks on me, apart from
Anriette's email, even your reference
above of not responding to me with the
fear of starting a flame war is such an
attack, although a somewhat lighter one,
given the normal standards.<br>
<br>
(Another thing - yes, I have a structural
critique of the role and positions of a
good part of civil society involved in IG
space - often dominant in its expression -
and its support for certain power
structures, which I do often voice, which
I understand may not go well with some
people. But I always voice it in a
collective structural manner and never
directed at an individual, or even a set f
them. This is the view I have - and I
consider it very important in the current
global circumstances - and I cannot
desist from offering when the occasion so
demands.)
<div> <br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">The
words of a few serving to delegitimize
the efforts of many.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Well, that, who are 'few' and who 'many'
itself needs to examined.... That is
always the million dollar democratic
question!<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">please
stop<br>
<br>
Note to coordinators. I would never
quit IGC, but sometimes I beleive
being kicked of the list would bring
great relief.<br>
I have heard others say similar
things.<br>
<br>
And now back to hunkering down
hoping the storm will pass.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
____________________<br>
Bertrand de La Chapelle
<div>Internet & Jurisdiction Project
Director, International Diplomatic Academy (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>)</div>
<div>Member, ICANN Board of Directors <br>
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<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est
d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
("there is no greater mission for humans
than uniting humans")</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
____________________<br>
Bertrand de La Chapelle
<div>Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director,
International Diplomatic Academy (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>)</div>
<div>Member, ICANN Board of Directors <br>
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br>
<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes"
Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting
humans")</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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