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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I guess it has to do with how much we think the existing mechanisms have been completely compromised or are manifestly unable to do the job that is necessary. It is rather like the "Internet Freedom" meme… It is hard to disagree with it except that given what we now know it is hard to accept any of it at face value and yet, the notion of freedom of expression (and dare I say true security of free expression) is probably more important now given what we know that it was before the Snowden revelations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The challenge is to develop mechanisms that guarantee these freedoms where the array of forces determined to undermine such freedoms is so overwhelming and ubiquitous.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 30, 2013 10:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> <governance@lists.igcaucus.org>; Ian Peter<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Which is why I keep advocating participating in a system and reforming it from the inside<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Those of us with the goodwill and expertise required (policy, tech, a combination of the two) are thin enough on the ground. Do we squander our energies in setting up an entirely new body - and negotiating all the political jockeying that will inevitably erupt if such a body is ever created in the first place (power abhors a vacuum, and power centers don't shift of themselves)?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or do we work within the framework that does exist, and keeping in mind the realities that do exist, to influence change from within?<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 30-Aug-2013, at 8:36, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That of course, is the difficulty and the challenge… I'm not sure if we (or anyone) is up to this but a very significant amount of our individual and collective futures rests on being able to effectively respond/meet these challenges.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 30, 2013 10:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>; Ian Peter<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I will cheerfully accept your rating - if you are able to tell me just how a global so-called "techno political forum" which includes multiple different actors each with their own espionage capabilities is going to prove any sort of an improvement to the current situation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Especially where the majority of the applications commonly used on the Internet are anyway based in the USA and subject to US national law / lawful intercept or what have you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 30-Aug-2013, at 8:22, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Suresh,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you a C- as you don't seem to be willing/able to link Internet governance to the Snowden revelations i.e. how other than some (globally inclusive) "techno-political" forum will it be possible to deal with/respnd to the Internet as a/the primary mechanism for global security management which is the perspective of the currently dominant Internet player and its allies.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh Ramasubramanian<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 30, 2013 9:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ian Peter<br><b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yes and several of those are already being covered across a wide range of fora that have been operational for a while.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Do we seek to plug gaps, or do we seek to create an overarching, as the bestbits statement idealistically puts it "techno political" one forum to rule them all?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This diversity - even for inter governmental cooperation - is actually something that has helped let the internet grow worldwide without being bogged down in politics.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 30-Aug-2013, at 7:57, "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I know they consume massive amounts of energy, but I am personally not very interested in the range of issues which ICANN should cover – and nor are most nations. For me there are much more pressing matters which threaten the Internet than the minutia of names and numbers. It’s these wider issues which pose threats.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Ian Peter </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" title="suresh@hserus.net">Suresh Ramasubramanian</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Friday, August 30, 2013 12:09 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" title="ian.peter@ianpeter.com">Ian Peter</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" title="nb@bollow.ch">Norbert Bollow</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>in practice - we have seen international agreements depend on a bedrock that all signatories can agree on.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>For cybercrime treaties such as the vienna convention for example, the concept of dual criminality, and the internationally understood nature of cybercrime - so that even regimes that don't agree on, say, human rights, find it easier to agree on the best way to coordinate to deal with cybercriminals.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Starting somewhere - why not start within the GAC and within the other stakeholder groups in ICANN? Several of the groups coming forward with feedback have never seen the inside of an ICANN meeting.<br><br>--srs (iPad)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>On 30-Aug-2013, at 6:51, "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thats probably where you have to start. But there are plenty of international agreements that suggest you can move well beyond that.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" title="suresh@hserus.net">Suresh Ramasubramanian</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Friday, August 30, 2013 11:05 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" title="ian.peter@ianpeter.com">Ian Peter</a> ; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" title="nb@bollow.ch">Norbert Bollow</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The problem is that you can only get consensus on least common denominator mom and apple pie general principles, which will soon break down once you try to achieve consensus on anything more specific. <br><br>--srs (htc one x) <br><br><br>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, "Norbert Bollow" <<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch">nb@bollow.ch</a>><br>Subject: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead<br>Date: Fri, Aug 30, 2013 5:29 AM<br><br></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Hi Norbert,<br><br>the reason I originally got involved with this internet governance stuff was <br>that nationalisation = balkanisation in the Internet sphere.<br><br>International agreements would overcome this and lead to more sensible <br>stable addressing of critical issues. We are not going to get nations out of <br>the picture but we may be able to get them to act collaboratively and set <br>principles and protocols for addressing internet issues.<br><br>That would not be full on "multistakeholder" governance, but it would be a <br>significant advance on the current unilateral action status quo.<br><br>It's probably more feasible than what most people imaging multistakeholder <br>to be. We should be encouraging governments to act collaboratively with each <br>other, as well as with other stakeholders.<br><br>Ian Peter<br><br>-----Original Message----- <br>From: Norbert Bollow<br>Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 7:57 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it is dead<br><br>I read Diego's posting not as expressing that presumption, but as<br>questioning the feasibility of “denationalization of Internet<br>governance”.<br><br>Are there reasons to believe that this “denationalization” is feasible?<br><br>Greetings,<br>Norbert<br><br><br><br>Am Thu, 29 Aug 2013 21:46:32 +0000<br>schrieb Milton L Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</a>>:<br><br>> I would have to reject the way you presume that the society = the<br>> state. That is the whole point of my argument - they are not the<br>> same, _especially_ in cyberspace. I also would have to question your<br>> assumption that "asymmetries" (not entirely clear what you mean by<br>> this, but I assume you mean inequalities) are overcome or mitigated<br>> via the existence of states. Wow, what an assumption. So in the<br>> world of states, there is no asymmetry between USA and Uruguay, or<br>> between China and Laos. Hmmmm.<br>><br>> But of course, such problems are not easy to overcome. No one said<br>> they were.<br>><br>><br>> From: Diego Rafael Canabarro [<a href="mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com">mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com</a>]<br>> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:56 PM<br>> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Ian Peter<br>> Cc: Milton L Mueller; Adam Peake<br>> Subject: Re: [governance] Fwd: [At-Large] The Internet as we know it<br>> is dead<br>><br>> The "denationalized model" proposed in Networks and States<br>> intentionally puts asymmetries aside. And for the larger part of<br>> those 190 or so states (and their societies), asymmetries (especially<br>> socioeconomic ones) are high priority in their international affairs.<br>> It doesn't seem to be something easy to overcome, does it?<br>><br>> Regards<br>> Diego<br>><br>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Ian Peter<br>> <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a><<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>> wrote: Well<br>> stated Milton!<br>><br>> "The choice is not "the multistakeholder model" vs. the ITU. It is<br>> the denationalization of Internet governance vs. the international<br>> anarchy of governance by 190 nation-states."<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a> <br><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></body></html>