<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<font face="Verdana">Yes, moving towards 'digital sovereignty' </font>is
not easily sustainable, on many counts.... But then a global
architecture of data flows. storage and generally cloud computing
will require global norms, principles and regulation that are
arrived at in an open, participative and democratic manner...<br>
<br>
And also US has to stop enforcing such digital sovereignty
conditions on telecom and Internet businesses inside US, to make for
a level playing field for others - a field which even with such a
change in US's position would remain highly uneven....<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 08 August 2013 05:37 PM,
Carolina wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ECF085E0-18C9-48BA-B846-E2B6D307951D@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Yesterday we had a public hearing in Brazil on our Internet
Bill of Rights (Marco Civil).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One of the business associations made a very compelling
presentation on the negative effects of Internet <span
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469); ">Balkanization, presenting its points on economic
terms and how any regulation regarding local servers and local
data storage would increase the country cost and make a
country even less competitive. It followed to present
comparative country costs regarding storage and data centers.
Pretty compelling for the politicians in the audience.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469);">Carolina</span></div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 8, 2013, at 6:46 AM, "Peter H. Hellmonds" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peter.hellmonds@hellmonds.eu">peter.hellmonds@hellmonds.eu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div>Checks and balances means the best way to keep the
surveillance state in check is both effective judicial and
transparent parliamentarian oversight, but it needs to
happen in a way that those watching over these processes</div>
<div>a) are not being paid by those they are supposed to
supervise</div>
<div>b) are not being lied to by the administration</div>
<div>c) do not operate in complete secrecy</div>
<div>d) do not create a separate body of secret laws</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Still, a lot of damage has been done that is irreversible
and will lead to far-reaching changes in Internet
governance. If we want to prevent a Balkanization of the
net, we will need to continue on the path of
internationalization of the core processes and institutions
while safeguarding against the numerous attempts by one
stakeholder group to subvert the Multistakeholder principles
that have made the Internet the success it currently still
is. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- Peter</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 08.08.2013, at 04:30, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div>We're actually in agreement that there's a dichotomy
here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, court rather than administration oversight
over such processes remains key to constitutional and
democratic controls.<br>
<br>
--srs (iPad)</div>
<div><br>
On 08-Aug-2013, at 7:56, "michael gurstein" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14
(filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes,
for sure and we know that the trend globally has
been towards more democratic accountability and
less arbitrary governance so it is particularly
disturbing to see that the loudest governmental
advocate in support of these trends seems to be
moving quite rapidly in the other direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Move<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 07, 2013 10:39
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Diego Rafael Canabarro<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
michael gurstein; Avri Doria<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Secret
Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System
at Risk<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is a matter of scale. There
are governments where any and every citizen could
expect to hear a midnight knock on the door to
have his whole family shipped off to an
undisclosed location. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are others where the rule
of law exists, constitutional protections exist
and such cases are aberrations. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In all fairness, there are
countries where Manning would have been tortured
and shot without benefit of any sort of trial for
what he did.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 07-Aug-2013, at 8:58, Diego Rafael Canabarro
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com">diegocanabarro@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"<span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">the
USA is far from being the sort of country
North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia are"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">These
days, it has been pretty hard to sustaion
that argument without serious open flanks.
Especially when one considers that the
argument "the sort of ..." is naturally
biased towards a very manichean ways of
seeing things. Pursuing Sanchez makes Cuba
evil. The same with Aaron Swarts or
Assange is turned sacred with the bless
(and bliss, and also the magic cape) of
the rule of law. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at
6:04 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be wrong to
assume that any government at all doesn't
wear multiple hats - a security service,
regulators, etc all acting with a degree of
independence can produce such contradictions<br>
<br>
Still, the USA is far from being the sort of
country North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia
are. Some perspective might actually help
before tarring all governments with the same
brush. Or before assuming that each and
every government entity moves in lockstep
with the other.<br>
<br>
Lacking that perspective would perhaps show
almost as much naïveté<br>
<br>
--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On 05-Aug-2013, at 15:15, "michael
gurstein" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> This position strikes me as either
naïve or duplicitous in the extreme.<br>
><br>
> Does one really believe that the
USG and its "Internet Freedom" allies
were<br>
> supporting Internet Freedom because
they believed in a free Internet (while<br>
> they were using the Internet to
build the capacity to undermine the<br>
> fundamental human rights/freedoms
of us all).<br>
><br>
> Rather, it should I think, be
evident that their real motivation was
to<br>
> ensure that there were no
structures or mechanisms of whatever
sort<br>
> (governmental, inter-governmental,
multi-stakeholder or whatever) that<br>
> are/were in a position to protect
those human rights and against the<br>
> depredations which they were
secretly constructing with which we all
are<br>
> being threatened.<br>
><br>
> Do you really believe that the good
folks who built and/or funded the<br>
> current systems are going unbidden
to build/fund out of the fineness of<br>
> their principles the systems that
you are suggesting would "protect us
from<br>
> government intrusion and ... revise
Internet architectures so as to<br>
> eliminate the points of control
that governments are so successful at<br>
> exploiting".<br>
><br>
> Our strength such as it is, comes
from the possibility of creating and<br>
> implementing democratic processes
and mechanisms through which governments<br>
> and the increasingly global commons
can be made transparent and held<br>
> accountable and through which the
protection of human rights and
fundamental<br>
> freedoms can be protected and
extended.<br>
><br>
> Mike<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Avri Doria<br>
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 3:06
PM<br>
> To: IGC<br>
> Subject: Re: [governance] Secret
Surveillance Puts Internet Governance<br>
> System at Risk<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2 Aug 2013, at 18:35, Diego
Rafael Canabarro wrote:<br>
><br>
> quoting:<br>
><br>
>> Secret Surveillance Puts
Internet Governance System at Risk
Friday<br>
>> August 02, 2013<br>
>><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6926/135/"
target="_blank">http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6926/135/</a><br>
><br>
>> the U.S. has ceded the moral
high ground on the issue.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Anyone who believes that any
government anywhere occupies high ground
is<br>
> likely to be disappointed.
Governments, while unfortunately still
a<br>
> necessary evil in this stage human
moral development, are not to be trusted<br>
> but to be controlled and treated
with suspicion by the people as much as<br>
> possible. sure there are good
people in all governments, but
government<br>
> themselves are not those good
people, rather they are bureaucracies<br>
> motivated by a complex of
intractable and often negative forces.<br>
><br>
> The high ground in Dubai was not an
issue of which government should be<br>
> trusted, it was the point of trying
to remove all governments as much as<br>
> possible. Governments cannot be
trusted. History shows us that they
never<br>
> could be and it is only blind faith
that indicates someday they may be<br>
> trustworthy. Of course when
governments are the only voice we have
for<br>
> limiting government intrusion - as
they are in the ITU, the topic can get<br>
> perverted.<br>
><br>
> But to view the confirmation of
what we all knew, that all governments<br>
> monitor all people at all times as
much as they can get away with, as an<br>
> excuse to give other governments
more oversight is a bit confused to my<br>
> mind.<br>
><br>
> I think all this has shown is that
an Internet that allows any sort of<br>
> government interference is likely
to be used by those governments for
their<br>
> own purposes, whether they are,
surveillance in the service of perceived<br>
> terror, pedophilia or intellectual
'property' threats , the silencing of<br>
> dissidents or the persecution of
minorities such as the gay population
and<br>
> other cultural/nation/racial
minorities.<br>
><br>
> While we can and must fight on the
policy front to defend ourselves against<br>
> the vulnerabilities created and
already exploited by the current
Internet's<br>
> control points, we must put more
and more focus into creating
technologies<br>
> and processes that protect us from
government intrusion and must revise<br>
> Internet architectures so as to
eliminate the points of control that<br>
> governments are so successful at
exploiting.<br>
><br>
> avri<br>
><br>
><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">>
____________________________________________________________<br>
> You received this message as a
subscriber on the list:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
><br>
> For all other list information and
functions, see:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"
target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
> To edit your profile and to find the
IGC's charter, see:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
><br>
> Translate this email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"
target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
<br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on
the list:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and
functions, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"
target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's
charter, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"
target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Diego R. Canabarro<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597"
target="_blank">http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597</a> </span><br>
<br>
--<br>
diego.canabarro [at] <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ufrgs.br" target="_blank">ufrgs.br</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">diego [at] <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pubpol.umass.edu"
target="_blank">pubpol.umass.edu</a><br>
MSN: diegocanabarro [at] <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a><br>
Skype: diegocanabarro<br>
Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) /
+1-413-362-0133 (USA)<br>
--<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br>
<span>You received this message as a subscriber on the
list:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br>
<span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br>
<span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's
charter, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br>
<span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br>
<span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br>
<span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter,
see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br>
<span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br>
<span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br>
<span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>