<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Yesterday we had a public hearing in Brazil on our Internet Bill of Rights (Marco Civil).</div><div><br></div><div>One of the business associations made a very compelling presentation on the negative effects of Internet <span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Balkanization, presenting its points on economic terms and how any regulation regarding local servers and local data storage would increase the country cost and make a country even less competitive. It followed to present comparative country costs regarding storage and data centers. Pretty compelling for the politicians in the audience.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Carolina</span></div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 8, 2013, at 6:46 AM, "Peter H. Hellmonds" <<a href="mailto:peter.hellmonds@hellmonds.eu">peter.hellmonds@hellmonds.eu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Checks and balances means the best way to keep the surveillance state in check is both effective judicial and transparent parliamentarian oversight, but it needs to happen in a way that those watching over these processes</div><div>a) are not being paid by those they are supposed to supervise</div><div>b) are not being lied to by the administration</div><div>c) do not operate in complete secrecy</div><div>d) do not create a separate body of secret laws</div><div><br></div><div>Still, a lot of damage has been done that is irreversible and will lead to far-reaching changes in Internet governance. If we want to prevent a Balkanization of the net, we will need to continue on the path of internationalization of the core processes and institutions while safeguarding against the numerous attempts by one stakeholder group to subvert the Multistakeholder principles that have made the Internet the success it currently still is. </div><div><br></div><div>--- Peter</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 08.08.2013, at 04:30, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>We're actually in agreement that there's a dichotomy here.</div><div><br></div><div>However, court rather than administration oversight over such processes remains key to constitutional and democratic controls.<br><br>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 08-Aug-2013, at 7:56, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes, for sure and we know that the trend globally has been towards more democratic accountability and less arbitrary governance so it is particularly disturbing to see that the loudest governmental advocate in support of these trends seems to be moving quite rapidly in the other direction.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Move<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 07, 2013 10:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> Diego Rafael Canabarro<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein; Avri Doria<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System at Risk<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">It is a matter of scale. There are governments where any and every citizen could expect to hear a midnight knock on the door to have his whole family shipped off to an undisclosed location. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">There are others where the rule of law exists, constitutional protections exist and such cases are aberrations. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">In all fairness, there are countries where Manning would have been tortured and shot without benefit of any sort of trial for what he did.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 07-Aug-2013, at 8:58, Diego Rafael Canabarro <<a href="mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com">diegocanabarro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">the USA is far from being the sort of country North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia are"</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">These days, it has been pretty hard to sustaion that argument without serious open flanks. Especially when one considers that the argument "the sort of ..." is naturally biased towards a very manichean ways of seeing things. Pursuing Sanchez makes Cuba evil. The same with Aaron Swarts or Assange is turned sacred with the bless (and bliss, and also the magic cape) of the rule of law. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">It would be wrong to assume that any government at all doesn't wear multiple hats - a security service, regulators, etc all acting with a degree of independence can produce such contradictions<br><br>Still, the USA is far from being the sort of country North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia are. Some perspective might actually help before tarring all governments with the same brush. Or before assuming that each and every government entity moves in lockstep with the other.<br><br>Lacking that perspective would perhaps show almost as much naïveté<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>On 05-Aug-2013, at 15:15, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> This position strikes me as either naïve or duplicitous in the extreme.<br>><br>> Does one really believe that the USG and its "Internet Freedom" allies were<br>> supporting Internet Freedom because they believed in a free Internet (while<br>> they were using the Internet to build the capacity to undermine the<br>> fundamental human rights/freedoms of us all).<br>><br>> Rather, it should I think, be evident that their real motivation was to<br>> ensure that there were no structures or mechanisms of whatever sort<br>> (governmental, inter-governmental, multi-stakeholder or whatever) that<br>> are/were in a position to protect those human rights and against the<br>> depredations which they were secretly constructing with which we all are<br>> being threatened.<br>><br>> Do you really believe that the good folks who built and/or funded the<br>> current systems are going unbidden to build/fund out of the fineness of<br>> their principles the systems that you are suggesting would "protect us from<br>> government intrusion and ... revise Internet architectures so as to<br>> eliminate the points of control that governments are so successful at<br>> exploiting".<br>><br>> Our strength such as it is, comes from the possibility of creating and<br>> implementing democratic processes and mechanisms through which governments<br>> and the increasingly global commons can be made transparent and held<br>> accountable and through which the protection of human rights and fundamental<br>> freedoms can be protected and extended.<br>><br>> Mike<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of Avri Doria<br>> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 3:06 PM<br>> To: IGC<br>> Subject: Re: [governance] Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance<br>> System at Risk<br>><br>><br>> On 2 Aug 2013, at 18:35, Diego Rafael Canabarro wrote:<br>><br>> quoting:<br>><br>>> Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System at Risk Friday<br>>> August 02, 2013<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6926/135/" target="_blank">http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6926/135/</a><br>><br>>> the U.S. has ceded the moral high ground on the issue.<br>><br>><br>> Anyone who believes that any government anywhere occupies high ground is<br>> likely to be disappointed. Governments, while unfortunately still a<br>> necessary evil in this stage human moral development, are not to be trusted<br>> but to be controlled and treated with suspicion by the people as much as<br>> possible. sure there are good people in all governments, but government<br>> themselves are not those good people, rather they are bureaucracies<br>> motivated by a complex of intractable and often negative forces.<br>><br>> The high ground in Dubai was not an issue of which government should be<br>> trusted, it was the point of trying to remove all governments as much as<br>> possible. Governments cannot be trusted. History shows us that they never<br>> could be and it is only blind faith that indicates someday they may be<br>> trustworthy. Of course when governments are the only voice we have for<br>> limiting government intrusion - as they are in the ITU, the topic can get<br>> perverted.<br>><br>> But to view the confirmation of what we all knew, that all governments<br>> monitor all people at all times as much as they can get away with, as an<br>> excuse to give other governments more oversight is a bit confused to my<br>> mind.<br>><br>> I think all this has shown is that an Internet that allows any sort of<br>> government interference is likely to be used by those governments for their<br>> own purposes, whether they are, surveillance in the service of perceived<br>> terror, pedophilia or intellectual 'property' threats , the silencing of<br>> dissidents or the persecution of minorities such as the gay population and<br>> other cultural/nation/racial minorities.<br>><br>> While we can and must fight on the policy front to defend ourselves against<br>> the vulnerabilities created and already exploited by the current Internet's<br>> control points, we must put more and more focus into creating technologies<br>> and processes that protect us from government intrusion and must revise<br>> Internet architectures so as to eliminate the points of control that<br>> governments are so successful at exploiting.<br>><br>> avri<br>><br>><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">> ____________________________________________________________<br>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>><br>> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>><br>> Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>Diego R. Canabarro<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597" target="_blank">http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597</a> </span><br><br>--<br>diego.canabarro [at] <a href="http://ufrgs.br" target="_blank">ufrgs.br</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">diego [at] <a href="http://pubpol.umass.edu" target="_blank">pubpol.umass.edu</a><br>MSN: diegocanabarro [at] <a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a><br>Skype: diegocanabarro<br>Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) / +1-413-362-0133 (USA)<br>--<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br><span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br><span> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br><span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br><span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div><div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br><span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br><span> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br><span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br><span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br><span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br><span> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br><span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br><span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>