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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm not sure at this point what would be required… <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If these are public policy processes of some sort (and I'm guessing most of us would agree that they are) then similar such firewalls to reduce/exclude commercial or other interests in inappropriately influencing those processes would be required. These will likely vary from country to country but given that we are talking about what I would consider extremely significant policy processes we as a group should probably opt for the most stringent current standards rather than opting for some common denominator or simply adopting holus bolus the standards of certain of the more significant parties involved.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein; 'George Sadowsky'; 'Thomas Lowenhaupt'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Update from today's MAG call<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>In your opinion, would keeping program content firewalled from sponsorship and in some cases regulating where sponsored material such as banners, giveaways etc can be located not be enough? If not, what additional safeguard would you suggest? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Keeping in mind what imran and grace pointed out about funding sources for local igf events. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>thanks <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>--srs<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br>-------- Original message --------<br>From: michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> <br>Date: 08/03/2013 7:02 AM (GMT+05:30) <br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org,'George">governance@lists.igcaucus.org,'George</a> Sadowsky' <<a href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a>>,'Thomas Lowenhaupt' <<a href="mailto:toml@communisphere.com">toml@communisphere.com</a>> <br>Subject: RE: [governance] Update from today's MAG call <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>George,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm not sure that the IGF would actually be definable (exclusively) as a "professional meeting"… I'm travelling at the moment so can't verify exactly but I would guess that in the documentation somewhere there are definitions of the IGF as (at least quasi) places of "policy" deliberation which in the "governance" context would go somewhat beyond the simply "professional".</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In that context i.e. as policy deliberation forums the need for rules governing issues such as "capture" etc. would surely need to be rather stronger than those for strictly "professional" meetings.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>George Sadowsky<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 03, 2013 3:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Thomas Lowenhaupt<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Update from today's MAG call</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thomas,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I agree with you, but I don't like the idea of singling out only IGFs for application of this policy. IGFs are like many other professional meetings, and should be treated as such. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>How about this as an alternative? Professional meetings of any type should be transparent regarding the sources and processes of resource acquisition for their events and their other activities.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>George<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Aug 2, 2013, at 8:48 PM, Thomas Lowenhaupt wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>With regard to bottom up, I agree that "national and regional IGFs should be able to make the decisions regarding the nature of their IGFs that are consistent with the needs an desires of those countries and regions." But transparency as to the source and process of resource acquisition should be required to use the IGF name. <br><br>Tom Lowenhaupt<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On 8/2/2013 12:05 PM, George Sadowsky wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think that national and regional IGFs should be able to make the decisions regarding the nature of their IGFs that are consistent with the needs an desires of those countries and regions. The IGF is not a franchise operation within which the top can dictate the behavior of the smaller meetings presumably feeding into it. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In fact, it would be more appropriate if representatives of those smaller meetings agreed upon the policies associated with the global IGF, not the other way around. This should not be a top down operation. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The reason that the "no commercial recognition" policy applies to the global IGF is that it is a UN sponsord meetng, and therefore UN rules apply. This is not true for regional and national IGFs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Note that I am not saying anything about the desirability or non-desirability of such a policy at lower levels, but rather that it is their decision to make on an individual basis, not a decision or even a recommendation that should be made at a global level. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Aug 2, 2013, at 5:49 PM, parminder wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Friday 02 August 2013 02:09 PM, Grace Githaiga wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.5pt;color:#444444'>"Can one now expect that this is also made a basic condition for regional and national IGFs, among some basic conditions that are listed for such initiatives, and these conditions are enforced". </span><br><br><br>Parminder, can you clarify on this sentence? <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In my opinion, I do not think that this is a sound proposal to start imposing conditions on say national IGFs. Is multistakeholdersim not about getting all stakeholders on board to discuss these issues? For example if say Kenya is holding the Kenya IGF and a telco company decides it will put in money since it has been part of the process, should that not be accepted? At KICTANet, we have a multistakeholder model that brings even the corporate stakeholders on board, NOT necessarily to influence the IGF but as partners. Further, different national IGFs have different models of fundraising. What works in Kenya may not work in say Tanzania. Kindly clarify. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Grace,<br><br>Happy to clarify. <br><br>First of all, it should be clear that I only seek that those conditions be made applicable to national and regional IGFs that many of us here ( as also the UN IGF MAG Chair and others) agree that it is appropriate and necessary to apply to the UN IGF.<br><br>Inter alia, such conditions are that while private companies can donate money to the IGF, which goes into a trust fund, all measures will be taken to ensure that there is not the least possibility of any quid pro quo at all for these donations, including providing positions on the MAG, giving speaking/ chairing slots, special recommendations for speaking slots, special invitations to what could otherwise be selectively closed high-level (policy related) meetings, logos in and around the spaces where actual policy deliberation takes place, and so on.... <br><br>Do you indeed disagree with my position, whereby do you think that these above conditions, with regard to policy spaces, that democratic propriety demands UN IGF must observe, should not be made applicable to national or regional IGFs? <br><br>Before I go on, I just want to make sure that I really understand what you are saying here, and you understand my position.<br><br>parminder<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Rgds<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GG<o:p></o:p></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 09:38:55 +0530<br>From: <a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [governance] Update from today's MAG call<br><br><br><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Kudos to Markus for making a such clear affirmative statement on the isuue of commercialisation of IGF..</span>.... And for also having strongly disapproved of the Indonesian fund raising document/ strategy in February itself, and for asking the local organising team to discontinue it and take the document off their website. To make things clear in such strong words is really good " the only thing that can be sold on the premises of the UN meeting is food, and that has to be at a reasonable price".<br><br>Can one now expect that this is also made a basic condition for regional and national IGFs, among some basic conditions that are listed for such initiatives, and these conditions are enforced. Safeguarding policy spaces from commercial/ corporatist influences is as important at regional and national levels as at the global level.<br><br>As mentioned earlier, I remain rather concerned that the Chair of Asia Pacific IGF called the provisions in the controversial Indonesian IGF fund raising document as, and I quote<br><br>".....providing some traditional "value" back to contributors. The deal is nothing new - it seems to be a rather standard sponsorship arrangement."<br><br>If indeed it was a rather standard sponsorship document, why did then the MAG Chair disapprove of it and ask for its withdrawal? <br><br>I am not sure therefore how they do it at the AP IGF, but I do see enough reason to be concerned about it. If any clarification in this regard is to be forthcoming, I would welcome it.<br><br>There seems to be a consdierable lack of clarity about what the IGFs - as a somewhat formal (and therefore, and to that extent, monopolistic) 'policy dialogue space' and a new insitutionalised form of 'participation in governance' and a new experiment in participative democracy - mean and how they must be organised, and strongly insulated from private interests. And for this sake, one need to be almost paranoidly pro-active rather than being slack and accommodative. Insitutions of democracy are built with such extreme care and caution, and being stickler to basic norms.<br><br>parminder <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wednesday 31 July 2013 06:32 PM, Norbert Bollow wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Here's a quick update from today's MAG call (I listened in as an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>observer.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Almost all of the discussion was around how to proceed in regard to <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>2013 IGF meeting. Markus said that cancellation is not an option. There<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>are two serious expressions of interest from potential host countries<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to step in on short notice if Bali doesn't work out. Failing that,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>there's the option of having the meeting at the relevant UN HQ, which<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for the IGF would mean Geneva, but since it might be difficult to get<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>so many rooms, that might mean that only a scaled down meeting could be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>held. Also hotel rooms can be problematic in Geneva. Google/Vint Cerf is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>willing to do a fundraising effort to try and save the Bali IGF. Some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>preliminary news, on the basis of which the MAG might be able to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>recommend something, is hoped for by the end of next week.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The current recommendation is not to cancel flights to Bali that have<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>already been booked, but also not to book a flight to Bali if you have<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>not booked yet. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The commercialization problem was only touched on briefly. Markus said<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that the basic rules are fairly simple: UN meetings cannot be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>commercialized, there can be no sponsor's logos on the premises of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>UN meeting (and this rule has been enforced, he gave an example where a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>compromise had been made in which sponsor's banners were put up outside<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the premises of the UN meeting but in a place where they were visible<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>from the meeting's cafeteria), the only thing that can be sold on the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>premises of the UN meeting is food and that has to be at a reasonable<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>price.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>So it seems clear that the IGF is not in direct danger of getting<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>commercialized - that objectionable Indonesian fundraising strategy has<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>simply been declared dead.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greetings,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Norbert<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>