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<font face="Verdana">To further clarify. The main point in my
addition which goes away with Kevin's amendment is the fact of
making the distinction between the claimed meta data related
surveillance of </font>US citizens and direct access to actual
content in case of PRISM operations that relate to non US
residents... Inside the US, the discussion seem to keep conflating
these two very different kinds and levels of incursions and
therefore in my view a global civil society statement should make
the distinction clear.... And of course I also insist to harp on the
fact that while US authorities have made so many statements
stressing that the content related to US citizens was never
accessed, they havent said a word about having made such
infringements vis a vis non US citizens. I think that non US
citizens have a right to stress this point . Happy to hear Kevin on
this ..<br>
<br>
However I may very soon be going offline, <br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 June 2013 10:28 PM,
Carolina Rossini wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK-FJAcXGDv=zJg+05JeS_AbnAWfe6+7NDDUhATcq6-z3fX0kg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Dear Kevin and Parminder,<br>
<br>
Do you think there is any specific contribution to the letter you
can make based on the debate below? I just want to be sure we are
channeling this energy in the lists to the word that will become
public. <br>
<br>
Btw, I have already incorporated Parminder's earlier
contributions. <br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<font face="Verdana"> Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that
the collection of direct content related info on non US
citizens was in fact much larger than what most suspect at
present. See Snowdon's latest statements at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak"
target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak</a><br>
<br>
Of particular significance is this quote "</font><font
face="Verdana"> "We hack network backbones -- like huge
Internet routers, basically -- that give us access to the
communications of hundreds of thousands of computers
without having to hack every single one." (Snowdon is in
an extremly precarious position, and must be careful about
what he says, and its veracity.)<br>
<br>
Now, network backbone hacking seems to go beyond accessing
the servers of Microsoft, Google, Fscebook and 6 other
companies that have been under focus. We still do not know
the processes and outcomes of these direct network
backbone hacking , and it may be contained in the numerous
documents that Snowdon shared and newspapers are still
keeping from us. <br>
<br>
Also worrying for me is your reference to FISA text in an
earlier email that "outside US to outside US" content
could be hacked with no court order. Snowdon further says
in the above piece that even universties and students were
targetted. I have a feeling that under conditions
requiring no court orders, US intelligence guys simply
went berserk over the technical possibilities that they
found at their hand, Every piece of evidence points to
this, and I would like to go by this presumption till
compelling eivdence to the contrary is shown. <br>
<br>
We are making a civil society statement, we are not making
a judicial pronouncement. The evidence we got at present
is enough for making such a statement. We are happy to be
responded to by US authorities - who have not bothered to
utter one word about direct content surveillance of non US
citizens - that what we say is not true, and this and this
is the proof of that...<br>
<br>
I would like to keep the text I suggested in, with
possibly Gene's amendments...<br>
<br>
Of course, happy to discuss this further.<span
class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
</font></span></font>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:44 PM, parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
<font face="Verdana">I am happy to accept Gene's
amendment, but Kevin's goes too far. will justify my
comment in a short while... parminder <br>
<br>
Kevin, If you ask me, I believe that the collection
of <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On Thursday 13 June 2013 09:34 PM, Kevin Bankston
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> I strongly support the
general sentiment that Parminder is seeking to add.
For what it's worth, here's a post that I and my
colleague Emily wrote yesterday on the same point,
urging our domestic audience and policymakers to pay
more attention to the international/human rights
implications, entitled "It's not just about US: How
the NSA Threatens Human Rights Internationally":
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally"
target="_blank">https://www.cdt.org/blogs/1206it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-us-how-nsa-threatens-human-rights-internationally</a><br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I think it's worth noting at this
point that because of the various company
denials (some of them quite strenuous and
clear), because of the Washington Post
stepping back from some of its reporting, and
because of conflicting reports in other major
news outlets like the New York Times and
Wired, we actually *do not know* how broad the
data collection being done via "PRISM" under
the FISA Amendments Act actually is; in other
words, we have no idea whether or how
proportionate it is. It very well might be
incredibly broad, which is certainly my fear;
it may also be more targeted than we suspect.
Meanwhile, the other conduct that's been
exposed--the disclosure of phone records--was
in regard to calls made to or from or inside
the US. So, for that reason, I agree with
Gene that it would be preferable that we have
a little wiggle room--we actually *don't know*
that there has been "large scale" access to
non-US persons content at this point, even if
we strongly suspect it. Furthermore, no one
has said there was "no access obtained to
content related to US citizens"; they've
simply said (which is BS) "no one's listening
to your calls", in reference to the PATRIOT
215 order for phone records. So, I'd suggest
editing Parminder's suggestion into something
like...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana">"We are extremely
disappointed that, in the wake of the latest
disclosures, statements by the US government
have focused solely on assuring the American
people that their privacy rights have been
respected. The right to privacy against
overreaching government surveillance is a
human right. </font><font face="Verdana">Human
rights are universal, belonging to all
people regardless of nationality, and every
government must refrain from violating them
for all people, and not merely for its
citizens. The US government's current and
future surveillance law and practice must
reflect this reality and respect everyone's
human rights."</font><br>
<div>
<div> <span
style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>____________________________________</div>
<div>Kevin S.
Bankston</div>
<div>Senior
Counsel and
Free
Expression
Director</div>
<div>Center for
Democracy
&
Technology</div>
<div>1634 I St
NW, Suite 1100</div>
<div>Washington,
DC 20006</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:202.407.8834" value="+12024078834" target="_blank">202.407.8834</a>
direct</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:202.637.0968" value="+12026370968" target="_blank">202.637.0968</a>
fax</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kbankston@cdt.org" target="_blank">kbankston@cdt.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Follow CDT
on Twitter at
@cendemtech</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span> </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Anja
Kovacs <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in"
target="_blank"><anja@internetdemocracy.in></a>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>+1 on Parminder's additional
suggested paragraph, though in its
original form (certainly many of us
feel our rights have been violated,
not sure we should leave it up to
the US government to decide whehter
or not that has indeed happened...).<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,<br>
Anja<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 13 June
2013 20:02, michael gurstein <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple"
lang="EN-US">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
can take a look for style
and grammar… Just alert me
when there is a "finalized"
text… I'm out and about all
day today so won't likely
get to in until tonight
(East coast Canada time) or
tomorrow morning.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carolina
Rossini<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June
13, 2013 10:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> parminder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a></span></p>
<div><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits]
Delivery of International
civil society letter to
Congress to follow up from HRC
statement</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I like
parminder suggestions on
non-US citizens. </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I
also agree with
suggestion on delivering
this on Monday.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Who
could take a final look
for style and grammar?
Much of it was lost
during the editing
process. I can try, but
it would be better if a
native english speaker
take the lead on the
final round. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Carol</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at
10:08 AM, parminder
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br>
<span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
statement has
turned out well.
However, I remain
concerned about
the fact that the
issue of non
citizens related
content
surveillance has
not at all been
addressed by the
US authorities.
They havent
bothered to say a
word on it (not
that it is easily
defensible). I
would like the
group to consider
adding the
following
paragraph
somewhere......</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"We are
extremely
disappointed that,
in all the post
'disclosures'
statements, US
authorities have
only insisted that
there was no
access obtained to
content related to
<i>US citizens</i>,
and just their
communication
meta-data was
collected. There
has not been a
word on the issue
of large-scale
access to content
related to non US
citizens, which is
a violation of
their human
rights. The
focussing of the
US authorities on
the difference
between treatment
of US citizens and
non-citizens on an
issue which
essentially
relates to
violation of human
rights is very
problematic. Human
rights are
universal, and
every government
must refrain from
violating them for
all people, and
not merely for its
citizens. The
current and future
US law and
practices on this
matter should take
note of this. "</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
I still have
issues with the
role of the
involved
companies, which I
will address in a
separate email. I
am fine though to
address them
separately,
through a possible
second statement.
<br>
<br>
Meanwhile the
second sentence in
the following
somehow looks not
quite right. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">"</span>T<span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">he
introduction of<s>
untargeted</s>
surveillance
mechanisms at the
heart of global
digital
communications
severely threatens
human rights in
the digital age. <b><i>These
new forms of
decentralized
power reflect
fundamental
shifts in the
structure of
information
systems in
modern
societies.</i></b>
[3] <s>and a</s>Any
step in this
direction needs to
be scrutinized
through ample,
deep and
transparent
debate.
Interference with
the human rights
of citizens by any
government, their
own or foreign, is
unacceptable."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
being referred to
as a 'form of
decentralised
power'? From the
reference I take
it, it is about
'arab spring' kind
of people's power,
but that doesnt
look clear from
the way the
sentence is wedged
between the other
two sentences...<span
style="color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
<span>parminder
</span><br>
<br>
</span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Thursday 13 June
2013 05:11 PM,
Anja Kovacs
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Also,
in response to
Parminder's
questions:
while we had
agreed from
the beginning
that the focus
of this
particular
statement
would be the
US Congress, I
feel (and I
just reread it
to check) that
it does
foreground the
concerns of
non-US
citizens/resident
(as it was
meant to do in
my reading as
well).
Parminder, do
you really
feel that
doesn't come
out at all? In
that case, we
do have some
more work to
do....</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
13 June 2013
16:28, Anja
Kovacs <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in"
target="_blank">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Anriette,
is there a
strong reason
why you feel
we should
release this
tomorrow
already? My
inclination
would be to
agree with
Nnenna and
others and to
wait until
Monday, but
would be keen
to know why
you feel
tomorrow is a
better idea. </p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
13 June 2013
14:37, Nnenna
Nwakanma <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nnenna75@gmail.com" target="_blank">nnenna75@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi people</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">I
will say
submit on
Monday. When
you kick off
the week with
it, you will
have ample
time to rave
up media
attention on
it..</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am hoping Mandela does not give up the
fight..
because that
will
overshadow any
other Internet
news...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> I am booked for the very first Africa
Internet
Summit in
Lusaka next
week. I do
hope to be
able to draw
attention to
the statement,
as well as
some that have
been made by
Best Bits.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Best of the day..</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">Nnenna</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Thu, Jun 13,
2013 at 8:51
AM, Anriette
Esterhuysen
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <br>
-----BEGIN PGP
SIGNED
MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
Greetings
everyone<br>
<br>
Content is
coming along
well.<br>
<br>
Jeremy, in
response to
your question,
what about
giving people
until<br>
21h00 GMT/UTC
today,
Thursday. Then
you can close
the text,
finalise it,<br>
and release
for sign-ons
and give
people until
16h00 GMT/UTC
Friday for<br>
sign ons and
then we can
send it off
before the end
of the
business day<br>
in Washington
DC (will be
12h00 in DC).<br>
<br>
That will
accommodate
Parminder's
request, but
still enable
us to get<br>
enough sign
ons and get
the letter to
Washington DC
on Friday.
Only<br>
region that
will have a
shortish
period for
sign ons will
be the
Americas.<br>
<br>
Will this
work?<br>
<br>
Anriette<br>
<br>
<br>
On 13/06/2013
08:13, Jeremy
Malcolm wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
- --<br>
-
------------------------------------------------------<br>
anriette
esterhuysen <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:anriette@apc.org" target="_blank">anriette@apc.org</a><br>
executive
director,
association
for
progressive
communications<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.apc.org/" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a><br>
po box 29755,
melville 2109<br>
south africa<br>
tel/fax <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B27%2011%20726%201692" target="_blank">+27 11 726 1692</a><br>
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href="http://www.enigmail.net/" target="_blank">http://www.enigmail.net/</a><br>
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</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br
clear="all">
</p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">-- <br>
Dr. Anja
Kovacs<br>
The Internet
Democracy
Project<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
@anjakovacs<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br
clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Anja
Kovacs<br>
The Internet
Democracy
Project<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B91%209899028053" target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
@anjakovacs<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/" target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <b>Carolina
Rossini</b> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#3333ff"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://carolinarossini.net/"
target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">+ 1 <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:6176979389"
value="+16176979389" target="_blank">6176979389</a></span><br>
<span
style="color:#666666">*</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#666666">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="color:#666666">*</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">skype: carolrossini</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#666666">@carolinarossini</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Anja Kovacs<br>
The Internet Democracy Project<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B91%209899028053"
value="+919899028053"
target="_blank">+91 9899028053</a> |
@anjakovacs<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetdemocracy.in/"
target="_blank">www.internetdemocracy.in</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div><b>Carolina Rossini</b>
<div>
<div><font color="#3333ff"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://carolinarossini.net/" target="_blank">http://carolinarossini.net/</a></font></div>
<div><font color="#666666">+ 1 6176979389</font><br>
<font color="#666666">*</font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com"
style="color:rgb(102,102,102)" target="_blank">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a><font
color="#666666">*</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><font color="#666666">skype: carolrossini</font></div>
<div><font color="#666666">@carolinarossini</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
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