<div dir="ltr">Parminder, <div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:54 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<font face="Verdana">Also noteworthy - about the point of willing
cooperation or not - that Google fails to mention this stuff in
its so called transparency report... What is the justification for
that...<br>
<br></font></div></blockquote><div style>Unfortunately the answer is pretty simple: they are prohibited by US law to mention this kind of requests. Whether this is something appropriate is another matter, but it is US laws. </div>
<div style><br></div><div style>B.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font face="Verdana">
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<div>On Tuesday 11 June 2013 07:13 PM,
michael gurstein wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
difficulty Kerry and all is that even if the US companies
were ``cooperat(ing) within the boundaries of the law``, it
was (necessarily) a US law bounded by, but enforcing US
jurisdiction. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
Internet dominant companies involved are of course companies
with global reach, global markets, global users and among
the most active purveyors of an open and free/boundaryless
Internet and what your post and the bulk of the discussion
on these matters does not address is that the other (non-US)
users of these services have essentially no protection under
these laws. They/we are `fair game`. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
some cases/places we have some protection under our own
national laws but given that these laws have no jurisdiction
(or truly effective influence) over the companies themselves
(as has been demonstrated in various matters particularly in
the European context and as is currently being articulated
to her credit by our Canadian Privacy Commissioner) we are
truly naked in front of these surveillance mechanisms (and
given the current state of the US security panic we are all
under suspicion until proven innocent); with by the way no
evident means of authenticating one`s innocence in any
lasting way.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Kerry Brown<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Is 'tit for tat' all
that can be accomplished?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA">The language is too confrontational (i.e.
“notes with horror”). It will never be taken seriously.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA">There is no proof that any of the companies you
mention cooperated willingly. I think that they all have
cooperated within the boundaries of the law but that is
opinion. I haven’t seen any proof. I think a far more likely
scenario is that the NSA uses a variety of methods, some
possibly illegal, to collect data that probably includes
data from the mentioned companies. That is speculation. If
we are going to express opinions and speculation we need to
call out that we are doing that.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA">Kerry Brown<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="EN-CA"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">(Proposed text below - very rough first draft
to get things rolling)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-CA">The Internet Governance Caucus notes with
horror the manner in which the global population is being
subject to such intrusive and intense surveillance by the
US government in complicity with US based companies like
Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype,
YouTube and Apple. Apart from being against all tenets of
basic human rights, it exposes the hypocrisy of the claims
by the US government of a special global legitimacy based
on the 'historic role' vis a vis the governance of the
Internet. We are further troubled that in US government
statements on the PRISM related disclosures, the main
defence it seems to take is to say that they would never
do any such thing to any US citizen. What about the non US
citizens? And what about the claims of the US government
that they are responsible to the 'global Internet
community', a refrain frequently heard from the US
government in the global Internet governance space? Why
the double talk across spaces where technical management
of the Internet is discussed and where 'harder' issues of
privacy, security and rights – from political and civil
rights to economic and social rights - get implicated? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-CA">We are also extremely disappointed by how the
US based global companies - Microsoft, Yahoo, Google,
Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple –
betrayed the trust of their global customers in
cooperating with the US government in such mass scale
surveillance. Reports on how Twitter seems to have refused
to cooperate show the kind of options that may have been
available to these other companies as well. The denials by
some of these companies about allowing government deep and
largely indiscriminate access to information on their
servers seem to run contrary to most news reports, which
have not been contradicted by US authorities on these
aspects. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-CA">We wonder if there is a pro quid quo between
the US government and these US based Internet companies
with global operations, whereby these companies help
further US government's political, military, etc interests
worldwide and the US government in turn puts its political
might in service of ensuring an unregulated global space
for these Internet businesses? A good example of this is
the insistence by the US government at the OECD and US-EU
trade talks to maintain lowest possible data privacy
standards, against considerable resistance by EU
countries. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-CA">The Internet Governance Caucus demand that
the Human Rights Council calls for a special report and a
special session on this issue. It should also proceed to
examine ways to develop globally-applicable norms and
principles on digital privacy and basic structures of
legal frameworks and due process that ensures people's
rights in online spaces – both civil and political rights
as well as social and economic rights. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
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