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    <font face="Verdana">Also noteworthy - about the point of willing
      cooperation or not - that Google fails to mention this stuff in
      its so called transparency report... What is the justification for
      that...<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 11 June 2013 07:13 PM,
      michael gurstein wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:0e1a01ce66a9$9cdfc560$d69f5020$@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
            difficulty Kerry and all is that even if the US companies
            were ``cooperat(ing) within the boundaries of the law``, it
            was (necessarily) a US law bounded by, but enforcing US
            jurisdiction.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
            Internet dominant companies involved are of course companies
            with global reach, global markets, global users and among
            the most active purveyors of an open and free/boundaryless
            Internet and what your post and the bulk of the discussion
            on these matters does not address is that the other (non-US)
            users of these services have essentially no protection under
            these laws. They/we are `fair game`.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
            some cases/places we have some protection under our own
            national laws but given that these laws have no jurisdiction
            (or truly effective influence) over the companies themselves
            (as has been demonstrated in various matters particularly in
            the European context and as is currently being articulated
            to her credit by our Canadian Privacy Commissioner) we are
            truly naked in front of these surveillance mechanisms (and
            given the current state of the US security panic we are all
            under suspicion until proven innocent); with by the way no
            evident means of authenticating one`s innocence in any
            lasting way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On
                  Behalf Of </b>Kerry Brown<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Is 'tit for tat' all
                that can be accomplished?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-CA">The language is too confrontational (i.e.
            “notes with horror”). It will never be taken seriously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-CA">There is no proof that any of the companies you
            mention cooperated willingly. I think that they all have
            cooperated within the boundaries of the law but that is
            opinion. I haven’t seen any proof. I think a far more likely
            scenario is that the NSA uses a variety of methods, some
            possibly illegal, to collect data that probably includes
            data from the mentioned companies. That is speculation. If
            we are going to express opinions and speculation we need to
            call out that we are doing that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-CA">Kerry Brown<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA">(Proposed text below - very rough first draft
              to get things rolling)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA">The Internet Governance Caucus notes with
              horror the manner in which the global population is being
              subject to such intrusive and intense surveillance by the
              US government in complicity with US based companies like
              Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype,
              YouTube and Apple. Apart from being against all tenets of
              basic human rights, it exposes the hypocrisy of the claims
              by the US government of a special global legitimacy based
              on the 'historic role' vis a vis the governance of the
              Internet.  We are further troubled that in US government
              statements on the PRISM related disclosures, the main
              defence it seems to take is to say that they would never
              do any such thing to any US citizen. What about the non US
              citizens? And what about the claims of the US government
              that they are responsible to the 'global Internet
              community', a refrain frequently heard from the US
              government in the global Internet governance space? Why
              the double talk across spaces where technical management
              of the Internet is discussed and where 'harder' issues of
              privacy, security and rights – from political and civil
              rights to economic and social rights - get implicated? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA">We are also extremely disappointed by how the
              US based global companies - Microsoft, Yahoo, Google,
              Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple –
              betrayed the trust of their global customers in
              cooperating with the US government in such mass scale
              surveillance. Reports on how Twitter seems to have refused
              to cooperate show the kind of options that may have been
              available to these other companies as well. The denials by
              some of these companies about allowing government deep and
              largely indiscriminate access to information on their
              servers seem to run contrary to most news reports, which
              have not been contradicted by US authorities on these
              aspects. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA">We wonder if there is a pro quid quo between
              the US government and these US based Internet companies
              with global operations, whereby these companies help
              further US government's political, military, etc interests
              worldwide and the US government in turn puts its political
              might in service of ensuring an unregulated global space
              for these Internet businesses? A good example of this is
              the insistence by the US government at the OECD and US-EU
              trade talks to maintain lowest possible data privacy
              standards, against considerable resistance by EU
              countries. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA">The Internet Governance Caucus demand that
              the Human Rights Council calls for a special report and a
              special session on this issue. It should also proceed to
              examine ways to develop globally-applicable norms and
              principles on digital privacy and basic structures of
              legal frameworks and due process that ensures people's
              rights in online spaces – both civil and political rights
              as well as social and economic rights. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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