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To be clear:<br>
<br>
The (or one of the) Third World analytics regarding legitimacy and
human rights has been confirmed by this incident. <b>There is
nothing new </b>in terms of our argumentation - it merely
confirms our worst fears. The truth is not improved by
overstatement. The ONLY thing, from this perspective is that, it
cannot be ignored any longer nor can we pretend that it does not
exist (I am sure lots will try).<br>
<br>
The baton has passed to those without sympathy for the issues (like
legitimacy - but not only that) and values implicit in that world
view - as evidenced by their politics (of which this list archive is
testament). The matter cannot be ignored or as easily denied
(fudging possible of course) with 'effortless superiority'.<br>
<br>
For me (hence Niemoller), to posit the possibility of work together
is to misrecognize the politics of the IGC and its civil society
reps (and perhaps the MAG too) some of whom have an active history
of limiting or forestalling 'third world' or third world 'type'
issues. The strategy of divide and rule has moved a lot further. It
is now fragment and dominate. <br>
<br>
Is legitimacy in internet governance even an issue? What gives the
US the right? This is not just an American privacy or freedom of
expression issue, it is a legitimacy issue. So let us not be
presumptuous because some people treat values like reeds that bend
in the wind but snap back to hit you in the face. The power
relations on this issue has not changed, ours is/was a mere moral
democratic argument. <br>
<br>
If there is to be unity, then it must be principled. And if there
are practical suggestions on how to deal with this, we will engage
as we have done in the past. But we are not nitpicking around false
analytics that seek to save face on this matter, as the heirs of
single rooting now find themselves obliged to do when provoked. This
matter must be treated with the seriousness it deserves, otherwise
we do ourselves a disservice.<br>
<br>
Is the IGC ready for such unity? I should hope so, but such idealism
is tempered by realism. But as always, happy to engage and also to
be surprised. <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013/06/10 09:33 PM, Deirdre
Williams wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMz5XN5aON0a_x312+qA4tZf9K3j+fFXLf9b_vgqPxTuny45aw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Riaz,
<div style="">My response was intended to speak to Kerry's
comment:</div>
<div style="">
<div class=""
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<table class="" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div id=":2c9" class=""
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><br>
.... We are a community that is made up of communities.
Many people have their fingers in many communities. There
is a lot of overlap. Trying to reduce every conversation
to sides is not useful and only causes division when we
should be seeking unification and consensus.<br>
<span class=""><br>
<font color="#000000">"They" are real experts at divide
and rule; if "we" allow ourselves to be divided, we
will be ruled for sure.</font></span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden">
<span class=""><font color="#000000"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><span class=""><font
color="#000000">You quote from Martin Niemoller </font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller</a> </span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><span class="">In the
context of your reply I find this a little strange,
because I have always understood Niemoller's words to be
one of the great human appeals to unity and solidarity
and responsibility to one's fellow human beings.</span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><span class=""><br>
</span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><span class="">Best
wishes</span></div>
<div id=":2c8" style="overflow:hidden"><span class="">Deirdre<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=""><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 10 June 2013 12:29, Riaz K Tayob <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> It is Sisyphean task.
<br>
<br>
But please let us avoid revisionism. We need to test the
veracity and politics of colleagues on this list and see
if they have been justified in taking the positions they
do.<br>
<br>
Cream rises to the top, but crap also floats
unfortunately. So let us not be too hasty in calls for
unity. The wheat needs to be separated from the chaff.
After all nothing like reality or evidence to do this job.
After all, you all are anti-American by doing this by some
definitions of the term on this list. And let us not
forget that the people pushing these views have had
inordinate play on this list so they have to reap what
they have sown, and be graded by their perspicacity. On
this issue in this space, slow is better.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote style="float:none;padding:10px 15px 10px
15px;display:table">
<p>First they came for the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist"
title="Socialist" target="_blank">socialists</a>,<br>
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.</p>
<p>Then they came for the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unionist"
title="Trade unionist" target="_blank">trade
unionists</a>,<br>
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade
unionist.</p>
<p>Then they came for the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews"
title="Jews" target="_blank">Jews</a>,<br>
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.</p>
<p>Then they came for me,<br>
and there was no one left to speak for me.</p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<br>
<div>On 2013/06/10 06:50 PM, Deirdre Williams wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">From a practical point of view this
is a bad time to show fractures within the civil
society group.
<div>Many (most??) of us have formally identified
ourselves as "civil society". If this means
anything at all it means that we hold some
values in common.</div>
<div>If we all push together at the same boulder -
who knows? - we might even be able to get it to
the top of the hill without its rolling down and
squashing us.</div>
<div>Although since stone-rolling was the
punishment for deceit this may not be the best
image to use in the context. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus</a></div>
<div>Or perhaps like Camus we "must imagine
Sisyphus happy" and keep on struggling.<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus</a></div>
<div> Deirdre</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 10 June 2013 10:37,
Kerry Brown <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kerry@kdbsystems.com"
target="_blank">kerry@kdbsystems.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">I don't know if this
counts as the "technical community" but it
does provide a plausible technical scenario.<br>
<br>
As an aside I am really getting tired of the
us vs. them conversations. We are a community
that is made up of communities. Many people
have their fingers in many communities. There
is a lot of overlap. Trying to reduce every
conversation to sides is not useful and only
causes division when we should be seeking
unification and consensus.<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
Kerry Brown<br>
<br>
</font></span><br>
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<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but
knowledge" Sir William Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize
Economics, 1979 </div>
</blockquote>
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-- <br>
“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge"
Sir William Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979
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</blockquote>
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