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    Yes we can change this. On this list these matters are tangential
    for some of the active players here. If there is a denial of the
    problem, or obstructions in even seeking to discuss it then
    democracy or not, it does not matter.  Seems like much of the
    mainstream press and civil society is bought and paid for (by
    association or through 'ideology) which is why in even in finance
    bankers get away with stuff while homeowners are foreclosed upon on
    fraudulent documents. That too can be changed. Everything can be
    changed. Sometimes to keep things the same everything else needs to
    be changed.<br>
    <br>
    Funny thing about this issue though is that there is bipartisan
    support (Foreign Intelligence Committee). There is consensus on this
    issue. And that is democratic too. How does it feel to be treated
    like Afghans, Iraqi's, Latino's, Africans and Asians? Good for the
    goose, good for the gander... as we used to say in our interminable
    arguments before... some counted on foreigners being treated
    differently, and so it was ok because 'they hate our freedoms'.
    Madison sought to dispel this myth.<br>
    <br>
    Do you think one can work against the ruthlessness of the
    singlerooters and not be idealist? And, Idealism must be tempered by
    realism. The realism not to be hounded, for instance, on this list,
    for holding third worldist views. And when a change is made, then
    protests begin. And this is a non-binding forum :)<br>
    <br>
    In short, you all in the N. America's are going to get your butts
    kicked (it has been happening but mandatory optimism seems to get in
    the way of feeling it, as EFF has been pointing out for a long time,
    and now the ACLU) and perhaps it is time for a change... let's see.
    As I said, I will not be holding my breadth, but I suspect that lots
    of people will be Swartzed.<br>
    <br>
    This is just an outsider view, so may be coloured by all sorts of
    prejudices and unfocussed because of distance, but it seems (at
    rough approximation) that progressive forces are poorly organised on
    this issue (in collecting power terms) and in any event are
    characterised by sterling performers (like EFF) and others with
    coalitions that seem to have too many hypocrites. <br>
    <br>
    Pity, so much of this is emancipatory.<br>
    <br>
    Riaz<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013/06/08 06:50 PM, Kerry Brown
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A0615421071EDD4A9F851117D67D538A8256052C@EXCH01.KDBSystems.local"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
            still not sure if you agree or disagree with my contention
            that in a modern democracy we have a chance to change this
            type of behaviour by those in power. I understand that
            historically things were different. I understand that some
            people don’t think that we have a chance to change this. I
            understand that many people have written or spoken about
            this. What I don’t understand so far is if you agree or
            disagree that in a modern democracy this can be changed. I’m
            not saying it would be easy or even that the odds are good.
            All I’m saying is the chance exists and I for one am working
            to making it happen. I don’t believe that defeatism is
            useful in reality or as an argument against working for
            change.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kerry
              Brown<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> Riaz K Tayob
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com">mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> June-08-13 8:06 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Kerry Brown<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has
                  direct access to tech giants' systems for user data,
                  secrAnet files reveal | World news | guardian.co.uk<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe in
            the reality of choice.<br>
            <br>
            To translate, from one Third World perspective, pithily:<br>
            <br>
            1. Imperialism (abroad) breeds tyranny at home - Madison saw
            it. Foreign entanglements were a real problem because of the
            kind of people it strengthened in power.
            <br>
            <br>
            2. Europe later America has had the tools for the
            emancipation of humanity. They have not been up to the task.
            Hence the challenge by some third worldists on the monopoly
            of definition and the rights to determine the terms of the
            terms of the debate (much like Haitian's took liberte,
            egalite, fraternity and gave the vote to all irrespective of
            property ownership).<br>
            <br>
            3. As Pouzin pointed out, this is old hat, but gets coverage
            now. Groundless (as meta-narrative - like centre/periphery,
            third worldism) "evidence" cannot rebut the presumption in
            favour of advanced countries who live under a dualistic
            system - increasingly democratic but also paranoic and hence
            authoritarian-like. <br>
            <br>
            4. In historical time, Madison points out this has been
            constitutive of democracy itself, much like the early US
            settlers who wanted to be free men, including free to keep
            slaves.<br>
            <br>
            Riaz<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2013/06/08 05:43 PM, Kerry Brown
              wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
                not sure of your point. Are you agreeing or disagreeing
                with my contention that in a modern democracy we have a
                chance to change this type of behaviour by those in
                power?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kerry
                Brown</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Riaz K Tayob<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> June-08-13 7:19 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: [IP] NSA has
                      direct access to tech giants' systems for user
                      data, secrAnet files reveal | World news |
                      guardian.co.uk</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">In time of actual war, great
                discretionary powers are constantly given to the
                Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has
                the same tendency to render the head too large for the
                body.
                <b>A standing military force, with an overgrown
                  Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty.
                  The means of defence against foreign danger have been
                  always the instruments of tyranny at home.</b> Among
                the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war,
                whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all
                Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of
                defending, have enslaved the people.
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <ul type="disc">
                <li class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
                  level1 lfo3">
                  Speech, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Convention"
                    title="w:Philadelphia Convention">
                    Constitutional Convention</a> (<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=1787-06-29&action=edit&redlink=1"
                    title="1787-06-29 (page does not exist)">1787-06-29</a>),
                  from Max Farrand's
                  <i>Records of the Federal Convention of 1787,</i> vol.
                  I <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=001/llfr001.db&recNum=494&itemLink=D?hlaw:5:./temp/%7Eammem_kmli::%230010495&linkText=1">[1]</a>
                  (1911), p. 465<o:p></o:p></li>
              </ul>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On 2013/06/08 04:45 PM, Kerry Brown
                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>Here is a Canadian perspective on this. How many other governments are doing this?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6869/125/">http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6869/125/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>We are living in 1984. This is not just a privacy issue. It is a fundamental change in our western democratic values. The only way we can change this is by keeping this at the forefront in the media. It must be a top issue in all elections. That is the good thing about democracies. Change is possible. It may take a long time, but it is possible.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Kerry Brown<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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