<div dir="ltr">That was my concern as well.<div style>I have just spent some time trying to discover the process by which a Charter [Proposed] becomes THE Charter in a W3C context. I found a stipulation of a review period of at least four weeks <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/processdoc.html#GAProcess">http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/processdoc.html#GAProcess</a> which I assume also applies to Charters. However when did the period of review begin? </div>

<div style>I also found this email, dated in February this year <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0122.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0122.html</a></div>

<div style>If the intention is to point out that the W3C working group is planning to exceed its appropriate scope - the EFF objection - then if we want to support the EFF in this objection I think there may be some urgency.</div>

<div style>If our intention is to make a statement objecting to the inclusion of DRM in HTML5 then that is a separate issue.</div><div style>The problem seems to be being caused by conflating these two things.</div><div style>

Why not handle them separately?</div><div style>1. Is there consensus in the IGC to support the EFF objection?</div><div style>2. Can the IGC create a consensus statement on DRM in HTML5 generally?</div><div style>Deirdre</div>

</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 8 June 2013 07:41, Adam Peake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank">ajp@glocom.ac.jp</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Thanks Catherine, Deirdre.<div><br></div><div>I think, or hope, we are pretty much in agreement.  I tried to make the proposed IGC comment pretty simple, cutting the paragraphs that had attracted the most disagreement.  That left an opening sentence saying IGC supports the EFF statement.  2nd sentence saying IGC thinks DRM in HTML5 harmful, trying to capture the overall sense of the other paragraphs discussed on the list.  3rd sentence IGC supports the EFF statement.  I know 1st and 3rd rather the same, but that was the point.  After a lot of to&fro where we seemed not to be getting anywhere, just tried to make something simple. </div>

<div><br></div><div>I suspect we won't get consensus on more. </div><div><br></div><div>And either we say something simple or end up, again, with a blathering and generally meaningless set of contradictions and compromise (for example see the IGC's February comment to the IGF open consultation).</div>

<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Adam</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Deirdre Williams wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">

<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Thank you Catherine - that's what I thought. </span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">But if EFF has gone to such lengths to object to the working group charter rather than to DRM in HTML5 directly then I'm wondering why we are not simply supporting the EFF objection to the Charter?</div>



</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 7 June 2013 13:10, Catherine Roy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ecrire@catherine-roy.net" target="_blank">ecrire@catherine-roy.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>



<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div>Hi Deirdre.<br>
      <br>
      I am sure someone from EFF on this list could explain it better
      than I so please correct me as needed but my understanding is that
      EFF's formal objection concerns an element of the HTML Working
      Group charter that enables the Working Group to propose the
      Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) specification which effectively
      represents a technology  that, in combination with Content
      Decryption Modules (CDMs), allows "the remote determination of
      end-user usage of content". EME is used with CDMs, which is a
      software component that permits access to encrypted resources (so
      basically DRM).<br>
      <br>
      EFF has made a formal objection on the Working Group charter to
      basically argue that such work, which is formulated in the charter
      as "supporting playback of protected content", is out of scope for
      the Working Group deliverables. So in effect, EFF is objecting to
      the fact that W3C, through its HTML Working Group, propose a
      specification that will enable the use of Digital Rights
      Management (via CDMs) in HTML5.<br>
      <br>
      It is my understanding that by supporting the EFF formal
      objection, IGC is effectively saying no to DRM in HTML5.<div><br>
      <br>
      Best regards,<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Catherine<br>
      <pre cols="72">-- 
Catherine Roy
<a href="http://www.catherine-roy.net/" target="_blank">http://www.catherine-roy.net</a></pre>
      <br>
      <br></div><div><div>
      On 07/06/2013 10:02 AM, Deirdre Williams wrote:<br>
    </div></div></div><div><div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Could someone please help to clarify things for me?
        <div>I hadn't responded before about the Electronic Frontier
          Foundation (EFF) statement because I had no time to read the
          documents until this morning.</div>
        <div>My understanding is that the IGC was asked if it would
          support the recent EFF statement.</div>
        <div>The EFF statement is a "Formal Objection to the HTML WG
          Draft Charter", indicating that the Charter "<span>represents

            a significant broadening of scope for the HTML WG (and the
            W3C as a whole) to include the remote determination of
            end-user usage of content." </span><a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a> The

          objection is NOT to DRM in HTML5 as such, although the text
          contains a detailed discussion of that issue as justification
          fotr the objection.</div>
        <div>Particularly within the working group Charter, the
          objection is to this reference in 2 -</div>
        <div><p style="clear:left;font-size:medium;font-family:sans-serif">"Some

            examples of features that would be in scope for the updated
            HTML specification:</p>
          <ul>
            <li><font color="#000000" face="sans-serif" size="3">additions to the HTMLMediaElement element
                interface, to support use cases such as live events or
                premium content; for example, additions for:</font>
              <ul style="font-size:medium;font-family:sans-serif">
                <li>facilitating adaptive streaming (<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html-media-source/" style="color:rgb(85,34,153);background-color:transparent" target="_blank">Media

                    Source Extensions</a>)</li>
                <li>supporting playback of protected content"  <a href="http://www.w3.org/html/wg/charter/2012/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/html/wg/charter/2012/</a> </li>
              </ul>
            </li>
          </ul>
          So please - are we discussing offering support to EFF's
          Objection to the Charter, or are we creating an IGC statement
          on DRM in HTML5?</div>
        <div>And if the latter, are we doing anything about
          EFF's Objection, which was what we were asked about in the
          first place?</div>
        <div>Thank you</div>
        <div>Deirdre</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On 7 June 2013 01:54, Adam Peake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank">ajp@glocom.ac.jp</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Catherine,
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Does the EFF statement cover your concerns?  </div>
              <div> <br>
              </div>
              <div>Best,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Adam</div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>
                        <div>On Jun 7, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Catherine Roy
                          wrote:</div>
                        <br>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            <div>Hi,<br>
                              <br>
                              While I support this latest formulation by
                              Adam as it is simple, to the point and
                              avoids ambiguous and perhaps (for the
                              moment) unprovable facts, I feel it is
                              lacking with regards to users' rights,
                              which is also one of the key issues at the
                              heart of this whole matter. That is, as
                              someone on the W3C restricted media
                              mailing list mentioned, standards should
                              be at the margin of debates, and if
                              required to take part, should always, in
                              the end, be on the side of the user. Much
                              like optimizing sites for particular
                              browsers that shut out certain users,
                              there is a real problem here with shutting
                              out users who do  not have the right
                              software/hardware from content (in this
                              case, much of the discussions revolve
                              around premium content  but it could
                              extend to any content that applies DRM).
                              So, while I am not a wordsmith and
                              therefore apologize for not proposing
                              exact wording, I would like to see
                              something more clear in the statement
                              regarding users rights and sovereignty
                              over their euh, "equipment".<br>
                              <br>
                              Best regards,<br>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              Catherine<br>
                              <br>
                              <pre cols="72">-- 
Catherine Roy
<a href="http://www.catherine-roy.net/" target="_blank">http://www.catherine-roy.net</a></pre>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              On 2013-06-06 04:52, Adam Peake wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div>
                                <div>Hi Sala, </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>To be honest, having to remember a
                                  url and jump off to a separate site
                                  for such a small statement is a pain.
                                   In my opinion, anyway.  Perhaps you
                                  can see the stats on the <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a> page,


                                  how many people bother to visit vs the
                                  very large number who read the list?</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>A cleaned up version of a short
                                  statement:</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>The Civil Society Internet
                                  Governance Caucus (IGC) endorses and
                                  supports the formal objection lodged
                                  by the Electronic Frontier Foundation
                                  (EFF) <<a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a>></div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>We believe that the inclusion of
                                  digital rights management in HTML5 has
                                  the potential to stifle innovation and
                                  we object to the inclusion of digital
                                  rights management (DRM) in HTML5.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>We fully endorse the arguments
                                  raised by the EFF in their statement
                                  "EFF's Formal Objection to the HTML WG
                                  Draft Charter" <<a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a>></div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>The EFF statement we're considering
                                  to support is itself long and speaks
                                  for itself.  See no need to add more
                                  than above.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Adam</div>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:30 AM, Salanieta
                                T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:</div>
                              <div><br>
                                <blockquote type="cite">In case, people
                                  missed it. The revised Statement is
                                  live at:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/digressit/archives/112" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/digressit/archives/112</a>
                                  where you can add your comments and
                                  suggest text.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Kind Regards,<br>
                                  Sala<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun
                                    6, 2013 at 2:50 AM, Salanieta T.
                                    Tamanikaiwaimaro <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                    wrote:<br>
                                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear All,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Further to the discussions on the
                                      mailing list, I have revised the
                                      first version to the one below. I
                                      have highlighted the sentence
                                      still in contention and also note
                                      that there are mixed reactions to
                                      the balance of the protection of
                                      intellectual property rights
                                      through mediums like the DRM to
                                      protect innovation and challenges
                                      to threats of impeded "Access".
                                      This is a very interesting debate
                                      and one I believe should be
                                      thoroughly explored by the IGC
                                      where we can come to some common
                                      ground (if we are able to). I have
                                      not had the time to read Frank La
                                      Rue's new report but it would be
                                      interesting to see his report of
                                      what the world is saying in
                                      relation to this conflict. I am of
                                      course interested in what the IGC
                                      has to say.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Roland and Avri raised some very
                                      interesting points that deserve
                                      discussion. As we speak, the
                                      Statement will be hosted on the
                                      Statement Workspace on the IGC
                                      website. I have tried to capture
                                      every comment in the attached
                                      document. I find that Statement
                                      Workspaces are far more effective
                                      in neatly allowing people to
                                      comment on each sentence etc, so
                                      my apologies if the attached
                                      document is inherently messy.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      What are your collective thoughts
                                      on what Roland suggested that
                                      whilst there are many battles,
                                      this is not one we should spend
                                      time on? The key issues for your
                                      deliberation would be:-<br>
                                      <ul>
                                        <li>What is the IGC's position
                                          on Digital Rights Management?</li>
                                        <li>What is the IGC's position
                                          on Digital Rights Management
                                          in HTML 5?</li>
                                      </ul><p>Thank you to all those for
                                        suggesting text and new wordings
                                        and phrases. I have tried to
                                        capture your views below. All
                                        the mistakes are of course mine.
                                        Let us have your thoughts. As
                                        soon as the Statement is on the
                                        Workspace, Norbert will inform
                                        us and this will allow us to
                                        track comments on the revised 
                                        statement.<br>
                                      </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Revised
                                              Draft Statement on Support
                                              for EFF’s Objection</span></u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The Civil
                                          Society Internet Governance
                                          Caucus (IGC) objects to the
                                          inclusion of digital rights
                                          management (DRM) in HTML5. We
                                          endorse and support the formal
                                          objection lodged by the
                                          Electronic Frontier Foundation
                                          (EFF) and that the draft
                                          proposal from the World Wide
                                          Web Consortium (W3C) could
                                          stifle Web innovation and
                                          block access to content for
                                          people across the planet.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
                                        </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We believe
                                          that the proposed standard by
                                          W3C is a serious threat to an
                                          open and free internet. <span style="background:yellow">The


                                            inherent danger of the
                                            proposal would be to shut
                                            out open source developers
                                            and competition, destroy
                                            interoperability and lock in
                                            legacy business models.</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><span style="background:yellow"><br>


                                          </span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:0in;text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Much of the
                                          developing world relies on
                                          open source developers to
                                          enable OR CREATE mechanisms
                                          that allow for an open
                                          environment of sharing
                                          resources related to
                                          agricultural practices,
                                          education, health and diverse
                                          content. In such regions,
                                          access to information is a
                                          challenge and with serious
                                          resource constraints, but it
                                          is an open and free internet
                                          (and the resultant ease of
                                          collaboration/sharing
                                          information) that empowers
                                          communities.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">For the
                                          foregoing reasons we reiterate
                                          our strong objection to the
                                          support for DRM technologies
                                          in HTML5, and our agreement
                                          with the EFF's arguments in
                                          this regard.</span></p>
                                      <br>
                                    </blockquote>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
                                  <br clear="all">
                                  <br>
                                  -- <br>
                                  <div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka
                                    Sala</div>
                                  <div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
                                  <div>Suva</div>
                                  <div>Fiji</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div>
                                  <div><a>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a></div>
                                  <div>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B679%203544828" value="+6793544828" target="_blank">+679 3544828</a></div>
                                  <div>Fiji Cell: <a href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851" value="+6799982851" target="_blank">+679 998 2851</a></div>
                                  <div>Blog: <a href="http://salanieta.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">salanieta.blogspot.com</a><br>
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        -- <br>
        “The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge"
        Sir William Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979 </div>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge" Sir William Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge" Sir William Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979
</div>