<div dir="ltr">That was my concern as well.<div style>I have just spent some time trying to discover the process by which a Charter [Proposed] becomes THE Charter in a W3C context. I found a stipulation of a review period of at least four weeks <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/processdoc.html#GAProcess">http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/processdoc.html#GAProcess</a> which I assume also applies to Charters. However when did the period of review begin? </div>
<div style>I also found this email, dated in February this year <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0122.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0122.html</a></div>
<div style>If the intention is to point out that the W3C working group is planning to exceed its appropriate scope - the EFF objection - then if we want to support the EFF in this objection I think there may be some urgency.</div>
<div style>If our intention is to make a statement objecting to the inclusion of DRM in HTML5 then that is a separate issue.</div><div style>The problem seems to be being caused by conflating these two things.</div><div style>
Why not handle them separately?</div><div style>1. Is there consensus in the IGC to support the EFF objection?</div><div style>2. Can the IGC create a consensus statement on DRM in HTML5 generally?</div><div style>Deirdre</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 8 June 2013 07:41, Adam Peake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank">ajp@glocom.ac.jp</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Thanks Catherine, Deirdre.<div><br></div><div>I think, or hope, we are pretty much in agreement. I tried to make the proposed IGC comment pretty simple, cutting the paragraphs that had attracted the most disagreement. That left an opening sentence saying IGC supports the EFF statement. 2nd sentence saying IGC thinks DRM in HTML5 harmful, trying to capture the overall sense of the other paragraphs discussed on the list. 3rd sentence IGC supports the EFF statement. I know 1st and 3rd rather the same, but that was the point. After a lot of to&fro where we seemed not to be getting anywhere, just tried to make something simple. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I suspect we won't get consensus on more. </div><div><br></div><div>And either we say something simple or end up, again, with a blathering and generally meaningless set of contradictions and compromise (for example see the IGC's February comment to the IGF open consultation).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Adam</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Deirdre Williams wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Thank you Catherine - that's what I thought. </span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">But if EFF has gone to such lengths to object to the working group charter rather than to DRM in HTML5 directly then I'm wondering why we are not simply supporting the EFF objection to the Charter?</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 7 June 2013 13:10, Catherine Roy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ecrire@catherine-roy.net" target="_blank">ecrire@catherine-roy.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Hi Deirdre.<br>
<br>
I am sure someone from EFF on this list could explain it better
than I so please correct me as needed but my understanding is that
EFF's formal objection concerns an element of the HTML Working
Group charter that enables the Working Group to propose the
Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) specification which effectively
represents a technology that, in combination with Content
Decryption Modules (CDMs), allows "the remote determination of
end-user usage of content". EME is used with CDMs, which is a
software component that permits access to encrypted resources (so
basically DRM).<br>
<br>
EFF has made a formal objection on the Working Group charter to
basically argue that such work, which is formulated in the charter
as "supporting playback of protected content", is out of scope for
the Working Group deliverables. So in effect, EFF is objecting to
the fact that W3C, through its HTML Working Group, propose a
specification that will enable the use of Digital Rights
Management (via CDMs) in HTML5.<br>
<br>
It is my understanding that by supporting the EFF formal
objection, IGC is effectively saying no to DRM in HTML5.<div><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Catherine<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Catherine Roy
<a href="http://www.catherine-roy.net/" target="_blank">http://www.catherine-roy.net</a></pre>
<br>
<br></div><div><div>
On 07/06/2013 10:02 AM, Deirdre Williams wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Could someone please help to clarify things for me?
<div>I hadn't responded before about the Electronic Frontier
Foundation (EFF) statement because I had no time to read the
documents until this morning.</div>
<div>My understanding is that the IGC was asked if it would
support the recent EFF statement.</div>
<div>The EFF statement is a "Formal Objection to the HTML WG
Draft Charter", indicating that the Charter "<span>represents
a significant broadening of scope for the HTML WG (and the
W3C as a whole) to include the remote determination of
end-user usage of content." </span><a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a> The
objection is NOT to DRM in HTML5 as such, although the text
contains a detailed discussion of that issue as justification
fotr the objection.</div>
<div>Particularly within the working group Charter, the
objection is to this reference in 2 -</div>
<div><p style="clear:left;font-size:medium;font-family:sans-serif">"Some
examples of features that would be in scope for the updated
HTML specification:</p>
<ul>
<li><font color="#000000" face="sans-serif" size="3">additions to the HTMLMediaElement element
interface, to support use cases such as live events or
premium content; for example, additions for:</font>
<ul style="font-size:medium;font-family:sans-serif">
<li>facilitating adaptive streaming (<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html-media-source/" style="color:rgb(85,34,153);background-color:transparent" target="_blank">Media
Source Extensions</a>)</li>
<li>supporting playback of protected content" <a href="http://www.w3.org/html/wg/charter/2012/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/html/wg/charter/2012/</a> </li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
So please - are we discussing offering support to EFF's
Objection to the Charter, or are we creating an IGC statement
on DRM in HTML5?</div>
<div>And if the latter, are we doing anything about
EFF's Objection, which was what we were asked about in the
first place?</div>
<div>Thank you</div>
<div>Deirdre</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 7 June 2013 01:54, Adam Peake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank">ajp@glocom.ac.jp</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Catherine,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does the EFF statement cover your concerns? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jun 7, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Catherine Roy
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
While I support this latest formulation by
Adam as it is simple, to the point and
avoids ambiguous and perhaps (for the
moment) unprovable facts, I feel it is
lacking with regards to users' rights,
which is also one of the key issues at the
heart of this whole matter. That is, as
someone on the W3C restricted media
mailing list mentioned, standards should
be at the margin of debates, and if
required to take part, should always, in
the end, be on the side of the user. Much
like optimizing sites for particular
browsers that shut out certain users,
there is a real problem here with shutting
out users who do not have the right
software/hardware from content (in this
case, much of the discussions revolve
around premium content but it could
extend to any content that applies DRM).
So, while I am not a wordsmith and
therefore apologize for not proposing
exact wording, I would like to see
something more clear in the statement
regarding users rights and sovereignty
over their euh, "equipment".<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Catherine<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Catherine Roy
<a href="http://www.catherine-roy.net/" target="_blank">http://www.catherine-roy.net</a></pre>
<br>
<br>
On 2013-06-06 04:52, Adam Peake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Hi Sala, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To be honest, having to remember a
url and jump off to a separate site
for such a small statement is a pain.
In my opinion, anyway. Perhaps you
can see the stats on the <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a> page,
how many people bother to visit vs the
very large number who read the list?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A cleaned up version of a short
statement:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Civil Society Internet
Governance Caucus (IGC) endorses and
supports the formal objection lodged
by the Electronic Frontier Foundation
(EFF) <<a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a>></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We believe that the inclusion of
digital rights management in HTML5 has
the potential to stifle innovation and
we object to the inclusion of digital
rights management (DRM) in HTML5.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We fully endorse the arguments
raised by the EFF in their statement
"EFF's Formal Objection to the HTML WG
Draft Charter" <<a href="https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/pages/drm/w3c-formal-objection-html-wg</a>></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The EFF statement we're considering
to support is itself long and speaks
for itself. See no need to add more
than above.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:30 AM, Salanieta
T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">In case, people
missed it. The revised Statement is
live at:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/digressit/archives/112" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/digressit/archives/112</a>
where you can add your comments and
suggest text.<br>
<br>
Kind Regards,<br>
Sala<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun
6, 2013 at 2:50 AM, Salanieta T.
Tamanikaiwaimaro <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear All,<br>
<br>
Further to the discussions on the
mailing list, I have revised the
first version to the one below. I
have highlighted the sentence
still in contention and also note
that there are mixed reactions to
the balance of the protection of
intellectual property rights
through mediums like the DRM to
protect innovation and challenges
to threats of impeded "Access".
This is a very interesting debate
and one I believe should be
thoroughly explored by the IGC
where we can come to some common
ground (if we are able to). I have
not had the time to read Frank La
Rue's new report but it would be
interesting to see his report of
what the world is saying in
relation to this conflict. I am of
course interested in what the IGC
has to say.<br>
<br>
Roland and Avri raised some very
interesting points that deserve
discussion. As we speak, the
Statement will be hosted on the
Statement Workspace on the IGC
website. I have tried to capture
every comment in the attached
document. I find that Statement
Workspaces are far more effective
in neatly allowing people to
comment on each sentence etc, so
my apologies if the attached
document is inherently messy.<br>
<br>
What are your collective thoughts
on what Roland suggested that
whilst there are many battles,
this is not one we should spend
time on? The key issues for your
deliberation would be:-<br>
<ul>
<li>What is the IGC's position
on Digital Rights Management?</li>
<li>What is the IGC's position
on Digital Rights Management
in HTML 5?</li>
</ul><p>Thank you to all those for
suggesting text and new wordings
and phrases. I have tried to
capture your views below. All
the mistakes are of course mine.
Let us have your thoughts. As
soon as the Statement is on the
Workspace, Norbert will inform
us and this will allow us to
track comments on the revised
statement.<br>
</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Revised
Draft Statement on Support
for EFF’s Objection</span></u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The Civil
Society Internet Governance
Caucus (IGC) objects to the
inclusion of digital rights
management (DRM) in HTML5. We
endorse and support the formal
objection lodged by the
Electronic Frontier Foundation
(EFF) and that the draft
proposal from the World Wide
Web Consortium (W3C) could
stifle Web innovation and
block access to content for
people across the planet.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We believe
that the proposed standard by
W3C is a serious threat to an
open and free internet. <span style="background:yellow">The
inherent danger of the
proposal would be to shut
out open source developers
and competition, destroy
interoperability and lock in
legacy business models.</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><span style="background:yellow"><br>
</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:0in;text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Much of the
developing world relies on
open source developers to
enable OR CREATE mechanisms
that allow for an open
environment of sharing
resources related to
agricultural practices,
education, health and diverse
content. In such regions,
access to information is a
challenge and with serious
resource constraints, but it
is an open and free internet
(and the resultant ease of
collaboration/sharing
information) that empowers
communities.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">For the
foregoing reasons we reiterate
our strong objection to the
support for DRM technologies
in HTML5, and our agreement
with the EFF's arguments in
this regard.</span></p>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka
Sala</div>
<div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
<div>Suva</div>
<div>Fiji</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div>
<div><a>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a></div>
<div>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B679%203544828" value="+6793544828" target="_blank">+679 3544828</a></div>
<div>Fiji Cell: <a href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851" value="+6799982851" target="_blank">+679 998 2851</a></div>
<div>Blog: <a href="http://salanieta.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">salanieta.blogspot.com</a><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
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</blockquote>
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