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Responses below.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013/05/16 05:23 PM, Milton L
Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">For those paying attention, the US
public interest organizations and civil libertarians are in
a complete uproar about all these cases, especially the AP
case. Atty General Holder is under fire. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Of course they are. But on this list nary a word about it. In point
of fact it is irrelevant according to McT.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD240567E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">But Riaz and others seem to miss
the point. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No I don't. It was a performative call to others on this list to
provide their views. Its news everywhere, but irrelevant for this
list. Funny, no? ... actually not. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD240567E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">The point is not that the US state
is flawless and holy, </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Except that the context in which these and related arguments are
made is that we can safely leave CIR under exclusive US jurisdiction
- California in particular I recall. Any questioning of this is
lambasted, ridiculed or sought to be silenced. These issues are
corollaries. If you can assert yours, 1) I can assert mine on my own
terms, 2) interrogate yours. If you know your pants are going to be
pulled down while on the public stage, wear underwear. I mean what
can I say here to help you?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD240567E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">and therefore Riaz can gloat when
it does bad things. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
This goes to motive. Unfair. I point out the shortcomings in the
adequacy of Peculiar Internationalism on a reasoned basis, albeit
provocatively.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD240567E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">To civil libertarians, ALL states
are capable of such things, at ALL times, and therefore one
needs institutionalized rights such as the U.S. Constitution
and its Bill of Rights in order to keep them in check.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Very true. But law is not only known by its positive norms, but also
by its exceptions. You cannot assert the one without the other. And
then I am instructed on what to say on this list.<br>
<br>
Or that I am gloating. Can you not see it as provocative so as to
engage with the legal ecology of CIR under exclusive US
jurisdiction? Is it not possible that third world countries will
import bad legislation from the US and stifle our own laws (as is
happening with security and terrorism after the PATRIOT Act, or that
drafted by ALEC which asserts no access to information laws apply to
it)? Too much is presumed, albeit I am trying to be provocative. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD240567E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"> We are certainly better off that
those rights are enshrined in the constitution than if they
were not.
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
We agree. It failed Schwartz, like Japanese Americans before,
precisely when he needed protection from the Leviathan the most. You
can't seriously be telling me that the roof does not leak while it
is not raining? Problem is, I am afraid that you are.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyone standing yet? I assumed the US
of A to be a country that has great respect for the Bill
of Rights - afterall it's oft cited as the cause of
every major riot, civil war, external military campaign
- "need to enforce Human Rights as per the Bill of
Rights" - coincidentally 22 hours ago I was just arguing
with my sister (she's in the US) about this very point
:)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-C<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:34 AM,
Riaz K Tayob <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">How very droll... will the
American's that take their Bill of Rights seriously
please stand up... from Guantanamo lawyers who have
attorney client privilege violated by being bugged
through to the Leviathan monster that ate Aaron
Schwartz (may he and his family know peace), the
priorities even of some Libertarians (as I see from
the outside) are misaligned...
<br>
<br>
14 May 2013 Last updated at 01:29 GMT <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<h1>Associated Press condemns US telephone record
seizure<o:p></o:p></h1>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part2.09070908.06030904@gmail.com"
alt="Man looks at his phone outside the offices
of the Associated Press in Manhattan, New York
(13 May 2013)" width="304" height="171"
border="0">The government would not say why it
sought the Associated Press telephone records <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22519776#story_continues_1"
target="_blank">Continue reading the main story</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>The Associated Press has described the US
government's secret seizure of its journalists'
telephone records as a "massive and unprecedented
intrusion".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Chief executive Gary Pruitt said AP was told on
Friday the justice department had
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ap.org/Content/AP-In-The-News/2013/Govt-obtains-wide-AP-phone-records-in-probe"
target="_blank">
gathered records of outgoing calls from more than
20 phone lines</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Mr Pruitt said there could be "no possible
justification for such an overbroad collection".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The justice department has provided no explanation
for the seizure.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>However, officials have previously said the US
Attorney's Office in the District of Columbia was
conducting a criminal investigation into information
contained in an AP story last year.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Published in May 2012, the article was about a CIA
operation in Yemen that foiled an al-Qaeda plot to
blow up a US-bound airplane.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Confidential sources <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The story was embarrassing to the government,
coming shortly after it had informed the public that
there was nothing to suggest any such attack had
been planned, says the BBC's David Willis in
Washington.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22519776#story_continues_2"
target="_blank">Continue reading the main story</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<h2>“Start Quote<o:p></o:p></h2>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I am very troubled by these allegations and
want to hear the government's explanation”<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Senator Patrick Leahy Judiciary
Committee chairman <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>Records for the phone numbers of five reporters and
an editor who were involved in the AP story were
among those obtained in April and May 2012.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>AP said the seizure of records for general
switchboard numbers and a fax line at its offices in
New York, Hartford, in Connecticut, Washington DC
and the House of Representatives was unusual and
largely unprecedented.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>"There can be no possible justification for such an
overbroad collection of the telephone communications
of the Associated Press and its reporters,"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ap.org/Images/Letter-to-Eric-Holder_tcm28-12896.pdf"
target="_blank">
Mr Pruitt wrote in a letter to US Attorney General
Eric Holder</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>"These records potentially reveal communications
with confidential sources across all of the
newsgathering activities undertaken by the AP during
a two-month period, provide a road map to AP's
newsgathering operations, and disclose information
about AP's activities and operations that the
government has no conceivable right to know."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It is not clear if the records seized included
incoming calls or the duration of the calls. Nor is
it clear whether a judge or grand jury approved the
subpoenas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>News organisations are normally notified in advance
if the government is seeking such information and
are given time to negotiate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The Obama administration has aggressively
investigated disclosures of classified information
to the media, bringing more cases against people
suspected of leaking such material than any previous
administration, our correspondent adds.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">'Press intimidation' <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Darrell Issa, the Republican chairman of the
investigative House of Representatives Oversight and
Government Reform Committee, criticised the seizure
of records.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>"They had an obligation to look for every other way
to get it before they intruded on the freedom of the
press," he told CNN.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Senator Patrick Leahy, the Democratic chairman of
the Senate Judiciary Committee, said in a statement
emailed to AP: "I am very troubled by these
allegations and want to hear the government's
explanation."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The American Civil Liberties Union accused the
Obama administration of "press intimidation".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In a statement, the US Attorney's Office in the
District of Columbia insisted it took seriously its
obligations to "follow all applicable laws, federal
regulations, and Department of Justice policies".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>"Those regulations require us to make every
reasonable effort to obtain information through
alternative means before even considering a subpoena
for the phone records of a member of the media," it
said.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>"Because we value the freedom of the press, we are
always careful and deliberative in seeking to strike
the right balance between the public interest in the
free flow of information and the public interest in
the fair and effective administration of our
criminal laws," it added.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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