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<DIV>I think I could have predicted most peoples responses on this issue as the
lines and allegiances are fairly well worn. But it is clear there will be no
civil society consensus statement on this issue.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But perhaps it is the academic community who may wish to respond. If their
right to representation is decided by someone effectively outside their group
who makes having been an internet pioneer a precondition for selection, they
have a right to feel disenfranchised. Perhaps this marriage of technical and
academic needs to be separated, with each choosing their own smaller set of
representatives. The many academics here may wish to respond in some way.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(as may other individuals in various capacities of course)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ian Peter</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=suresh@hserus.net
href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">Suresh Ramasubramanian</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A> ;
<A title=parminder@itforchange.net
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [governance] COMMENTS SOUGHT: draft letter to ISOC on
selection of T&A nominees for CSTD WG on EC</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV>Avri is stating facts here. That letter was childishly - even
petulantly worded. And isoc people are here and able to respond if they
choose to. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Though, the apparent dysfunction here makes me unsurprised if ISOC, APC and
other large civil society orgs choose to have an articulate a position that is
separate / independent / different from the one here, where I can't see
consensus at any rate - except among - as someone (David Allen?) pointed out, a
minority of posters here - which itself is a tiny minority in civil
society.<BR><BR>--srs (iPad)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On 17-Mar-2013, at 10:07, parminder <<A
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Dear Avri<BR><BR>There is no gotcha and laying traps
here. This is an avoidable personalisation of a political dialogue, and highly
accusatory. This is officially a space for political deliberations, and
questions and cross-questions are normally accepted methods of political
deliberation. Behind this methodology lies a firm democratic belief that we as
political/ public actors are responsible to the public for our held and
expressed perspectives, and we must explain and justify them when asked for
(and since there are no mechanisms for all public to be speaking at the same
time, it would always be some one person or the other asking the questions on
behalf of the public) . We are all responsible in this manner because being in
some kind of public roles - our perspectives impact, or at least can
potentially have an impact, on others, on all public.<BR><BR>On whether
'their' process should be left to 'them', even without any interrogation of
who are 'they', and questioning whether the need to have due representation of
'tech and academic communities' is being fulfilled; I am sure if CSTD had
picked up say the Beijing State Technical University (hypothetical name) to
choose the 'tech and acad communities'' reps, and the latter had laid the
condition that all nominations should come from people who are experts on
'information security' the caucus would have had a lot to say - both to the
CSTD and the designated focal point. Unless of course the designated focal
point was to be considered entirely illegitimate to be in that role - wholly
or partially, whereby we may have on that ground refused to even communicate
to them. <BR><BR>It is in fact because IGC considers ISOC largely to be
legitimate in a, partial or full, role as 'technical and academic communities'
focal point, and we consider it as a friendly entity, that some of us have
proposed that we write to them on this matter. I think that all the strong
views that we should not at all write to the ISOC on this is just beign
over-protective of ISOC, which protection I dont think they need at all. ISOC
is rather big, powerful and capable to be able to deal with such things on
their own. <BR><BR>parminder<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On Saturday 16 March 2013 08:47 PM, Avri Doria
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:3AD59E44-E863-4900-93C3-6B43B7A2B53A@acm.org type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hmm,
a gotcha question.
can't leave one of those unanswered
or else it festers
and becomes a long term
deep infection.
at least when i write a message to this list i know it will come under attack
so the next day I wake up and with dread check to see what the attack of the day is.
but let me look it this as my first cup of coffee is being prepared
(brb, need to start boiling the water)
In a loose sense,
yes, I consider myself a civil society person
who is a technical person who
does consider herself as part of the Itc
sort of
(-;
even if srs did not
- so perhaps I am less so than i thought -
is my experience stale and my membership waning?
is this a clue?
)
And I used to be a functionary of sorts within the IETF
(a WG chair and an RFC editor - even have my name on a few RFCs)
But lately have been more IRTF involved than IETF
And I am not sure they ever accepted me as one of them
(but that might just be a personal hangup)
Is IRTF technical community
or research community?
(brb, need to grind the beans
- some excellent Tanzanian beans a friend gave me)
but lately have not had a technical gig
that funded me to attend the IETF
so only participate in some sessions remotely.
(brb, the water is boiled.)
well i do technical research on DTN.
More so when I have funding than when I don't
(at this point I don't,
bummer
it is amazing how much funding i don't have)
(brb, time for second pour)
my last RFC was on DTN routing
but that is research
(
ah, coffee,
will be awake soon
want to be done by then
)
and i do teach a bit about internet technologies
and Internet standards
but that is education
So, am i a member of the Itc?
or a fellow traveller?
or what?
Would I consider applying to their focal point for a spot?
No, I wouldn't.
Of that I am sure.
Why?
I don't quite buy the argument of employment as key.
If i was independently wealthy (don't I wish?)
I might be attending all the IETF and W3C and
even NANOG and ARIN and ... meetings I could.
I would be volunteering to edit docs
and probably would get to chair stuff.
I like chairing stuff - building consensus is fun.
and would always be working on some ID or RFC or other document
and at that point, even without employment,
yes, I might have had no qualms asking their focal point
for consideration,
as i asked the Civil society focal point and the IGC
in my current circumstances.
(
then gain
if i was independently wealthy i might be an activist
working on some grand goal with full focus
not distracted by my need to use my meager talents
to make a living
)
But at that point I would have been steeped in their concerns,
more than Civil society concerns,
not on the periphery as I am now.
so no, i guess i don't really consider myself an
active Itc member for the purposes of
something as critical as CSTD ECWG
it is a hat i think i own, and think i can wear
but it not a hat i am currently wearing enough
to ask for such recognition.
so now that i am awake, i have figured out my answer.
yes, in my opinion
I am CS
and I am Itc
I am a CS with Itc skills and affinities
i am an Itc who works mostly in a CS context
but i am most actively CS
while I am not so active Itc
so i guess the criteria,
for me qua me and my identifications,
(
and believing each individual
for each Ig function
should only get one bite of the apple
)
would not feel right
considering myself Itc for the purposes of CSTD ECWG.
i would feel like i was being intrusive
(
unless
of course,
i was doing it to be transgressive
)
my focus for now is the CS perspective.
though i am an Itc fellow traveller.
i think i am awake now.
i have finished drinking my coffee now
thank you for the opportunity to do a bit of saturday morning introspection.
cheers,
avri
Ps. i still think their criteria is their affair. A focal point was picked by the CSTD chair. as with ours, they picked their way of working in a hurried situation and while as an individual i may form an opinion, i still don't think those criteria are the IGC's problem. As individuals of course, we have to freedom to comment on anything. Michael's application to them and his reaction is totally his affair. I just think the IGC should stay out of it.
Now, did i step on any hidden traps setting up the next gotcha? OMGs
-----
ARIN - American Registry for Internet Numbers
brb - be right back
CS - Civil society
CSTD ECWG - Commission on Science and Technology for Development Enhanced Cooperation Working Group
DTN - Delay and Disruption Tolerant Networking
Fellow Traveller - some one who ascribes to many of a group principles and missions but isn't a card carrying member
ID - Interent Draft
Ig - Interent governance
IETF - Internet engineering Task force
IRTF - Internet Research Task Force
Itc - Interent Technical Ccommunity
NANOG - North American Network Operators' Group
RFC - AN IETf/IRTF Request for Comment that is not longer a request for comment but is more of a request for implementation or something else all together.
RIPE - Réseaux Internet Protocol Européen
W3c - World Wide Web Consortium
On 16 Mar 2013, at 00:18, parminder wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Also, Avri, perhaps you can also tell us whether you consider yourself as a member of the technical community or not. (and if you do not. how do you define the membership of technical community). McTim BTW refused to answer this direct question which I directed at him yesterday. Your replies may just give the IGC some valuable food for a good discussion.
parminder
On Saturday 16 March 2013 12:45 PM, parminder wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">On Saturday 16 March 2013 09:46 AM, Avri Doria wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hi,
I do not support sending a letter.
If indeed they are being treated as another Stakeholder group, I do not see what job we have interfering with their selection processes. Just as we would be highly offended if they told Civil Society how to select candidates.
I am not making a judgement on any candidate or on their process, which I know nothing about. Or even on the issue of whether they should be treated as a separate Stakeholder group. I just think it is not our business to comment on their process or criteria.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">Avri
Are you saying that if the business community focal point was to send out a message that only representatives of businesses that have an annual turnover in excess of $ I billion may apply to be considered for for private sector membership of the CSTD WG, we as in the IGC should have nothing to say?
Or, even if UN comes up with a process whereby government membership CSTD WG is based on the GDP of a country, the IGC should have nothing to say?
This is the problem with a certain kind of MSism - a very poor conception of the fact that all political processes are aimed at a common public interest. Accordingly, all public actors involved in the process are accountable to the people, and to every and any other public actor...... This is how I see this kind of MSism causing grievous hurt to democracy, and all tenets of public life.
When you say that the focal points for chosing 'technical and academic community' representatives have no accountability to a civil society group and we cannot ask questions from them, you are saying that they have no accountability to the public. I am really shocked to hear this. I have no idea what your conception of civil society really is, and those of others who have come up with similar views. I think we as IGC need to figure out who we are, and what we think civil society is, and what all are its purposes etc......
I will like to have a clear articulation from this group, if needed through a vote, whether we really think that focal points for selecting reps of different stakeholders for a public body have no accountability to the public, and whether a civil society group can or cannot legitimately ask transparency and accountability related questions from them.
This point of process perhaps must be clarified before we go into the substance of our questions to the focal point for 'tech and academic communities'.
parminder
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">avri
On 15 Mar 2013, at 19:05, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Following on from discussions in the main thread on this topic (I'm starting a new thread to improve visibility), I have quickly drafted a letter that outlines the concerns that a number of us have expressed:
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/isoc-letter">http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/isoc-letter</A>
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