<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>FWIW, I base my claim to participation in the T/A stakeholder group not on the basis of "what I am" (e.g. "guest lecturer of this or that…") but rather on "what I do" and specifically within the context of (one of) the definitions provided to me by the T/A focal point i.e. "contributing to building the Internet". It is towards the latter that I built my claim (and more importantly the claim of my colleagues) to having "contributed to building the Internet" by our (Community Informatics) academic and research work in facilitating access to and use of the Internet by the widest range of possible citizens and particularly the marginalized in rural areas and LDC's and among the disabled, Indigenous people, urban poor and so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This claim is built on the assertion that the Internet is not simply the "wires and protocols" but also its users and its uses. With the Internet evidently having reached a level of technical maturity and stability but with at least three-fourths of humanity still without Internet access or the opportunity of use, it is this latter knowledge and experience which may now be taking on particular value and significance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh Ramasubramanian<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 16, 2013 10:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ian Peter<br><b>Cc:</b> <governance@lists.igcaucus.org>; parminder<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] COMMENTS SOUGHT: draft letter to ISOC on selection of T&A nominees for CSTD WG on EC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I fully agree that the Academic community needs to respond if they are underrepresented or marginalized in this process.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there is a broad cross section in academia with civil society - just as there's a broad cross section with the tech community and civil society, and tech community and academia (I could claim to be an academic, thanks to a guest researcher role I have at a malaysian university) :)<br><br>Driving divisions in these communities by dangling a carrot of dubious taste and value [being representation in this process] strikes me as a trifle rich though.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 17-Mar-2013, at 10:32, "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I think I could have predicted most peoples responses on this issue as the lines and allegiances are fairly well worn. But it is clear there will be no civil society consensus statement on this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>But perhaps it is the academic community who may wish to respond. If their right to representation is decided by someone effectively outside their group who makes having been an internet pioneer a precondition for selection, they have a right to feel disenfranchised. Perhaps this marriage of technical and academic needs to be separated, with each choosing their own smaller set of representatives. The many academics here may wish to respond in some way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>(as may other individuals in various capacities of course)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" title="suresh@hserus.net">Suresh Ramasubramanian</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:41 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" title="parminder@itforchange.net">parminder</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [governance] COMMENTS SOUGHT: draft letter to ISOC on selection of T&A nominees for CSTD WG on EC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Avri is stating facts here. That letter was childishly - even petulantly worded. And isoc people are here and able to respond if they choose to. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Though, the apparent dysfunction here makes me unsurprised if ISOC, APC and other large civil society orgs choose to have an articulate a position that is separate / independent / different from the one here, where I can't see consensus at any rate - except among - as someone (David Allen?) pointed out, a minority of posters here - which itself is a tiny minority in civil society.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>On 17-Mar-2013, at 10:07, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear Avri<br><br>There is no gotcha and laying traps here. This is an avoidable personalisation of a political dialogue, and highly accusatory. This is officially a space for political deliberations, and questions and cross-questions are normally accepted methods of political deliberation. Behind this methodology lies a firm democratic belief that we as political/ public actors are responsible to the public for our held and expressed perspectives, and we must explain and justify them when asked for (and since there are no mechanisms for all public to be speaking at the same time, it would always be some one person or the other asking the questions on behalf of the public) . We are all responsible in this manner because being in some kind of public roles - our perspectives impact, or at least can potentially have an impact, on others, on all public.<br><br>On whether 'their' process should be left to 'them', even without any interrogation of who are 'they', and questioning whether the need to have due representation of 'tech and academic communities' is being fulfilled; I am sure if CSTD had picked up say the Beijing State Technical University (hypothetical name) to choose the 'tech and acad communities'' reps, and the latter had laid the condition that all nominations should come from people who are experts on 'information security' the caucus would have had a lot to say - both to the CSTD and the designated focal point. Unless of course the designated focal point was to be considered entirely illegitimate to be in that role - wholly or partially, whereby we may have on that ground refused to even communicate to them. <br><br>It is in fact because IGC considers ISOC largely to be legitimate in a, partial or full, role as 'technical and academic communities' focal point, and we consider it as a friendly entity, that some of us have proposed that we write to them on this matter. I think that all the strong views that we should not at all write to the ISOC on this is just beign over-protective of ISOC, which protection I dont think they need at all. ISOC is rather big, powerful and capable to be able to deal with such things on their own. <br><br>parminder<br><br><br><br></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>On Saturday 16 March 2013 08:47 PM, Avri Doria wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>Hmm, <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>a gotcha question. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>can't leave one of those unanswered <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>or else it festers <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and becomes a long term <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>deep infection.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>at least when i write a message to this list i know it will come under attack<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>so the next day I wake up and with dread check to see what the attack of the day is.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but let me look it this as my first cup of coffee is being prepared<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(brb, need to start boiling the water)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>In a loose sense, <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>yes, I consider myself a civil society person <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>who is a technical person who <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>does consider herself as part of the Itc <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>sort of<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(-;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> even if srs did not <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> - so perhaps I am less so than i thought - <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> is my experience stale and my membership waning?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> is this a clue?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>And I used to be a functionary of sorts within the IETF <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(a WG chair and an RFC editor - even have my name on a few RFCs)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>But lately have been more IRTF involved than IETF<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>And I am not sure they ever accepted me as one of them<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(but that might just be a personal hangup)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Is IRTF technical community<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>or research community?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(brb, need to grind the beans <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> - some excellent Tanzanian beans a friend gave me)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but lately have not had a technical gig <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>that funded me to attend the IETF <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>so only participate in some sessions remotely. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(brb, the water is boiled.)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>well i do technical research on DTN.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>More so when I have funding than when I don't <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> (at this point I don't,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> bummer<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> it is amazing how much funding i don't have)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(brb, time for second pour)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>my last RFC was on DTN routing<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but that is research<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>ah, coffee,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> will be awake soon<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> want to be done by then<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and i do teach a bit about internet technologies<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and Internet standards<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but that is education<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>So, am i a member of the Itc?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>or a fellow traveller?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>or what?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Would I consider applying to their focal point for a spot?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>No, I wouldn't.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Of that I am sure.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Why?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I don't quite buy the argument of employment as key.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>If i was independently wealthy (don't I wish?)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I might be attending all the IETF and W3C and <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>even NANOG and ARIN and ... meetings I could.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I would be volunteering to edit docs<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and probably would get to chair stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> I like chairing stuff - building consensus is fun.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and would always be working on some ID or RFC or other document<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and at that point, even without employment,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>yes, I might have had no qualms asking their focal point<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>for consideration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>as i asked the Civil society focal point and the IGC<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>in my current circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>then gain<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>if i was independently wealthy i might be an activist<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>working on some grand goal with full focus<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>not distracted by my need to use my meager talents<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>to make a living<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>But at that point I would have been steeped in their concerns,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>more than Civil society concerns,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>not on the periphery as I am now.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>so no, i guess i don't really consider myself an <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>active Itc member for the purposes of <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>something as critical as CSTD ECWG<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>it is a hat i think i own, and think i can wear<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but it not a hat i am currently wearing enough<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>to ask for such recognition.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>so now that i am awake, i have figured out my answer.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>yes, in my opinion<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I am CS<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and I am Itc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I am a CS with Itc skills and affinities<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>i am an Itc who works mostly in a CS context<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>but i am most actively CS<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>while I am not so active Itc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>so i guess the criteria, <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>for me qua me and my identifications,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>and believing each individual<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>for each Ig function<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>should only get one bite of the apple<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>would not feel right <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>considering myself Itc for the purposes of CSTD ECWG.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>i would feel like i was being intrusive<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>(<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>unless<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>of course,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>i was doing it to be transgressive<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>my focus for now is the CS perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>though i am an Itc fellow traveller.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>i think i am awake now.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>i have finished drinking my coffee now<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>thank you for the opportunity to do a bit of saturday morning introspection.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>avri<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Ps. i still think their criteria is their affair. A focal point was picked by the CSTD chair. as with ours, they picked their way of working in a hurried situation and while as an individual i may form an opinion, i still don't think those criteria are the IGC's problem. As individuals of course, we have to freedom to comment on anything. Michael's application to them and his reaction is totally his affair. I just think the IGC should stay out of it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Now, did i step on any hidden traps setting up the next gotcha? OMGs<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>ARIN - American Registry for Internet Numbers<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>brb - be right back<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>CS - Civil society<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>CSTD ECWG - Commission on Science and Technology for Development Enhanced Cooperation Working Group<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>DTN - Delay and Disruption Tolerant Networking<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Fellow Traveller - some one who ascribes to many of a group principles and missions but isn't a card carrying member<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>ID - Interent Draft<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Ig - Interent governance<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>IETF - Internet engineering Task force<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>IRTF - Internet Research Task Force<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Itc - Interent Technical Ccommunity<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>NANOG - North American Network Operators' Group<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>RFC - AN IETf/IRTF Request for Comment that is not longer a request for comment but is more of a request for implementation or something else all together.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>RIPE - Réseaux Internet Protocol Européen<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>W3c - World Wide Web Consortium<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>On 16 Mar 2013, at 00:18, parminder wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>Also, Avri, perhaps you can also tell us whether you consider yourself as a member of the technical community or not. (and if you do not. how do you define the membership of technical community). McTim BTW refused to answer this direct question which I directed at him yesterday. Your replies may just give the IGC some valuable food for a good discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>parminder <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>On Saturday 16 March 2013 12:45 PM, parminder wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>On Saturday 16 March 2013 09:46 AM, Avri Doria wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I do not support sending a letter.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>If indeed they are being treated as another Stakeholder group, I do not see what job we have interfering with their selection processes. Just as we would be highly offended if they told Civil Society how to select candidates.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I am not making a judgement on any candidate or on their process, which I know nothing about. Or even on the issue of whether they should be treated as a separate Stakeholder group. I just think it is not our business to comment on their process or criteria.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style='color:black'>Avri<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Are you saying that if the business community focal point was to send out a message that only representatives of businesses that have an annual turnover in excess of $ I billion may apply to be considered for for private sector membership of the CSTD WG, we as in the IGC should have nothing to say?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Or, even if UN comes up with a process whereby government membership CSTD WG is based on the GDP of a country, the IGC should have nothing to say?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>This is the problem with a certain kind of MSism - a very poor conception of the fact that all political processes are aimed at a common public interest. Accordingly, all public actors involved in the process are accountable to the people, and to every and any other public actor...... This is how I see this kind of MSism causing grievous hurt to democracy, and all tenets of public life. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>When you say that the focal points for chosing 'technical and academic community' representatives have no accountability to a civil society group and we cannot ask questions from them, you are saying that they have no accountability to the public. I am really shocked to hear this. I have no idea what your conception of civil society really is, and those of others who have come up with similar views. I think we as IGC need to figure out who we are, and what we think civil society is, and what all are its purposes etc...... <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>I will like to have a clear articulation from this group, if needed through a vote, whether we really think that focal points for selecting reps of different stakeholders for a public body have no accountability to the public, and whether a civil society group can or cannot legitimately ask transparency and accountability related questions from them.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>This point of process perhaps must be clarified before we go into the substance of our questions to the focal point for 'tech and academic communities'. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>parminder<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>avri<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>On 15 Mar 2013, at 19:05, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:black'>Following on from discussions in the main thread on this topic (I'm starting a new thread to improve visibility), I have quickly drafted a letter that outlines the concerns that a number of us have expressed:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/isoc-letter">http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/isoc-letter</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>You can make changes in-line, or you can make comments using the chat pane on the right hand side.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Dr Jeremy Malcolm<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Senior Policy Officer<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Tel: +60 3 7726 1599<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>WCRD 2013 – Consumer Justice Now! | Consumer Protection Map: <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="https://wcrd2013.crowdmap.com/main">https://wcrd2013.crowdmap.com/main</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> | #wcrd2013<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>@Consumers_Int | <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.consumersinternational.org">www.consumersinternational.org</a> | <a href="http://www.facebook.com/consumersinternational">www.facebook.com/consumersinternational</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Read our email confidentiality notice. Don't print this email unless necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Translate this email: <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><pre><span style='color:black'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>