<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"><base href="x-msg://17/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">No. My point is that multilateral treatymaking is not done in advance of, but rather after, social and political change and as a means of recognising those changes and that the largest changes are made in cases where general warfare or other serious economic or socially-disruptive events have taken place.<div><br><div><div>On 13 Mar 2013, at 08:35, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Do I understand you to be saying that it is your preference that the rules/law governing the Internet be made bi-laterally between China and the US?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">M<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:governance-<a href="mailto:request@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Nick Ashton-Hart<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:21 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; parminder<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] China's next-generation internet is a world-beater - tech - 10 March 2013 - New Scientist<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear Parminder, see below<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">-- <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Nick <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse typos. If you want to schedule some time to talk, try this: <a href="http://meetme.so/nashton" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://meetme.so/nashton</a><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>On 13 Mar 2013, at 06:19, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I've snipped the rest to focus on this point, which seems (to me, clearly others may see things differently) the most significant of your post.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Let's accept for the moment that what you say is a true statement. Why would you see treaty-making as likely to counter these impacts, given the scenario you posit? In fact, a treaty, in this case, would be likely to cast in stone the very inequalities and dangers that you see.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Treaty-making, in my 20+ years of experience, is largely a codification of existing practice, not an evolution to create a new global situation: governments are simply unwilling to do much that changes their existing legal system profoundly excepting very rarely and then only because of a massive external threat or stress - which the negotiation is designed to deal with. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">What is happening at the larger social-structural level, and which I consider as the greatest threat to democracy, is a clear move from public governance, based on social contract, to private governance, based on private, interest-based, contracts. And the shift is rather systemic. It is obviously strongly supported, in fact instigated, by global capital which finds the biggest challenge to its domination of all aspects of our lives in the universal values of equity, fraternity and solidarity, that underlie public governance systems.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>