<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Yes. So a rentier state would mean one of those economies that derive most if not all their income from a natural resource like oil, or a geographical location such as where a larger country pays them a huge sum to locate a satellite launch station there. </div><div><br></div><div>Which resource becomes a government monopoly and engenders a thieving bureaucracy, restricted industry, lack of democracy etc. Like the gulf sheikdoms for example.<br><br>The rest of the usage of the term is where a government collects high taxes and represses its people causing democracy to suffer and civil society's grow to be retarded in such a country</div><div><br></div><div>My point is precisely that using this term in a negative context has a long history dating back to the sort of rentier I mentioned, and a historical context of being more often than not used to describe a repressive country with a governance and democracy failure. </div><div><br></div><div>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 04-Mar-2013, at 13:15, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Suresh, the term is I believe a more or less "technical" one which refers to those who extract rents from the ownership of various types of property. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Such a term could (and is) used within the context of a variety of analytical approaches although perhaps more often among those who see such relationships as "negative"--those who see such relationships as "positive" are likely to use other terms--e.g. "investor", "job creator" etc.etc. Hard to see the point you are making here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 04, 2013 7:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Diego Rafael Canabarro'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro'; <a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Fwd: Why do US and EU trade negotiators hate the Berne Copyright Limitations and Exceptions? | Knowledge Ecology International<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Look up rentier capitalism. <br><br>Then look up, for example, how words assume meaning based on context, such as 'boy' applied to a male child versus boy applied to an African American man. <br><br>thanks <br>--srs (htc one x)<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p>On 4 March 2013 12:21:24 PM "michael gurstein" wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">rentier French [rɑ̃tje] n</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">a. a person whose income consists primarily of fixed unearned amounts, such as rent or bond interest</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rentiers">http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rentiers</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"Perjorative"?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh Ramasubramanian<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 04, 2013 3:44 AM<br><b>To:</b> Diego Rafael Canabarro<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro; <a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Fwd: Why do US and EU trade negotiators hate the Berne Copyright Limitations and Exceptions? | Knowledge Ecology International</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">There are people who bridge the gap effectively. Which involves not using pejorative terms (rentier for instance) to describe those you disagree with. That, and working to find common ground where you can agree to some extent to those whose views differ from yours. So, not demonizing the opposition is definitely a good place to start.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The other thing I have found is that people who implement anything in practice and have their opinions tempered by that experience are much more reliable sources of knowledge, and more inclined to avoid blindly ideological positions, than theorists, especially those with a political bent.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 04-Mar-2013, at 8:50, Diego Rafael Canabarro <<a href="mailto:diegocanabarro@gmail.com">diegocanabarro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">How to disentangle both?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p>A big difference between the two. Ideology is driven by a relatively blind belief system. Philosophy takes more facts into account, even if they conflict with ideology. <br><br>--srs (htc one x)<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p><p>On 21 February 2013 12:04:10 PM Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">On the contrary, policy is driven by philosophy or ideology.<br><br><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:54 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">A perception of what different groups or individuals feel is the global public interest, more like?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Ideology and policy, especially on the Internet, are a very bad mix. And I doubt you will get consensus on what constitutes global public interest.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 21-Feb-2013, at 11:15, Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It is interesting when advocacy in relation to global public interest is labelled as left/South.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Civil society is seen as a watchdog and where it is told to stop speaking or expressing its views because they are "left" then there is a danger of being innoculated from subtle threats that affect what we hold dear, an open and free Internet.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On Feb 21, 2013, at 1:14 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I dont dispute that. My sole point is that there's little or no connection from these to internet governance, and there are plenty of other fora where the rest of it gets extensively discussed - quite a few exclusively from a "south" / "left" etc perspective as well, if that's a criterion that some seek.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 21-Feb-2013, at 4:04, Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">In essence, we live in a vast interconnected world and with something like the Internet, there are a plethora of issues that stem from the way that Internet is structured and the various regulatory mechanisms, diverse jurisdictional treatment etc.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">From a global public interest, it is in the interest of civil society to she informed of how various shifts in policies, laws, market behaviour, Internet architecture can affect the ordinary user.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On Feb 21, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The "application to cyberspace" part seems to be missing in that the frameworks being discussed are not specific to online copyright theft. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Even there, the wgig report does seem to over stretch the igov definition to a considerable extent.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 21-Feb-2013, at 0:42, "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi, is there an internet governance angle to this that I somehow missed?<br><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>Th WGIG 2005 Report identified Intellectual Property as an Internet Governance thematic area. See page 7:<br><br><span style="background:yellow">"<b>23. Intellectual property rights (IPR)</b><br><b>Application of intellectual property rights to cyberspace.</b><br>• While there is agreement on the need for balance between the rights of holders and the rights of users, there are different views on the precise nature of the balance that will be most beneficial to all stakeholders, and whether the current IPR system is adequate to address the new issues posed by cyberspace. On the one hand, intellectual property rights holders are concerned about the high number of infringements, such as digital piracy, and the technologies developed to circumvent protective measures to prevent such infringements; on the other hand, users are concerned about market oligopolies, the impediments to access and use of digital content and the perceived unbalanced."</span><br><br> Intellectual Property touches virtually every layer of the Information Infrastructure and layer of Internet Architecture, consider Verisign's Patent Application for Domain Name Transfers and other issues stemming from Digital Rights Management Systems and the use of Piracy Filters.<br><br>For human rights advocates, the use of piracy filters can just as easily be used to filter content arbitrarily and where do you draw the line. The criminalization of things like breaking digital locks on software etc.<br><br>The threats with the TPP is that there is a massive transition from being mere Traffic providers to policing the internet. The Berne Convention of course is one of the long standing international legal instruments that are widely accepted globally so by extension it is relevant.<br><br>There are many links that you can go to see the link between IP and the Internet and here are just three:<br><br><a href="http://www.cisco.com/web/about/gov/issues/ip_rights.html" target="_blank">http://www.cisco.com/web/about/gov/issues/ip_rights.html</a> <br><a href="https://www.eff.org/search/site/Trans%20Pacific%20partnership" target="_blank">https://www.eff.org/search/site/Trans%20Pacific%20partnership</a><br><a href="http://www.circleid.com/posts/20121011_perspective_on_verisign_patent_application_on_domain_transfers/" target="_blank">http://www.circleid.com/posts/20121011_perspective_on_verisign_patent_application_on_domain_transfers/</a><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 20-Feb-2013, at 18:57, <a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br><br>> Using a treaty for the blind to push 3 strikes..<br>><br>>> <a href="http://keionline.org/node/1655" target="_blank">http://keionline.org/node/1655</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">P.O. 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