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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 17 February 2013 08:43 AM,
Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:13ce6242d55.2728.4f968dcf8ecd56c9cb8acab6370fcfe0@hserus.net"
type="cite">
<p>That term progressive, in the 'right' hands seems to
produce, as parminder himself says, a distrust of
multistakeholder
processes, and I personally can't think of anything more
regressive. <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Only becuase i am (mis) quoted by name, I must correct it - i spoke
of mistrust of normatively loose conceptions of multistakeholderism,
and not necessarily of multistakeholderism..... Since in the very
next sentence i say that such kind of normative loose-ness is the
biggest enemy of multistakeholderism, it is obvious that i am not
opposed to any kind of multistakeholderism but only some kinds.....
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:13ce6242d55.2728.4f968dcf8ecd56c9cb8acab6370fcfe0@hserus.net"
type="cite">
<p>
<br>
So please, I know where the term originally came from, but
avoiding
repurposing a much older English word to mean something entirely
different would be a very good thing indeed. <br>
<br>
Has it ever been considered that the opposition to this brand of
politics (a focus on control of words, terms and if possible
governance
structures) as opposed to policy, comes more from people who
work on
the ground, hands on, in multistakeholder groups on whatever
cause? <br>
<br>
In such a case, it may then be quite arguable which side is
actually
representing public interest, or whether there can be one true
perception of such interest on more nuanced topics. So, that
test fails
if you try to seek positive proof, rather than 'negative' <br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)<br>
</p>
<br>
<p>
</p>
<p>On 17 February 2013 12:23:56 AM "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch"
<apisan@unam.mx> wrote:</apisan@unam.mx></p>
<blockquote type="cite">
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carry on! slice and dice until you're alone! you'll be at the
top of
the hill. Much of a top but not much of a hill.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>leave any claim to diversity and any chance for
tech-knowledge
based input by the wayside. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What a waste of Roland's, Suresh's and McTim's good will,
honesty
and energy expense. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yours,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alejandro Pisanty</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <br>
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Facultad de Química UNAM </font></span></span></div>
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FROM ABROAD </font></span></span></p>
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---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico,
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. . . . . . . . .
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<div id="divRpF858000" style="direction: ltr;"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>Desde:</b>
governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de
parminder
[parminder@itforchange.net]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> sábado, 16 de febrero de 2013 02:52<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [governance] Civil Society (was Re:
caucus
contribution, consultation and MAG meeting)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 14 February
2013 01:26 PM,
Roland Perry wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><snip)<br>
And that sounds like it includes my recent activity,
which has been
working with interest-based charities, volunteers etc
who have a focus
on one particular aspect of social justice, human
rights and the rule
of law: Prevention of violence against women - in
particular those who are tracked and harassed via
their Internet
footprint (commonly on social networking sites).
<br>
<br>
However, I'm also aware that in order to achieve the
goal of protecting
women, some people might characterise the techniques
involved as forms
of selective censorship and attempts to strip away
anonymity (in both
cases with respect to their attackers).
<br>
<br>
So not every part of Civil Society necessarily has the
same view on
core issues such as these.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, congruity of views in not the test. Working for
public interest is.
Although there can be different and contested notions of
public
interest - and that space of contestation, negotiation
and possible
resolution/ harmonisation is called politics, (No,
Suresh, politics is not what you think it is. It is a
good word, although it,
like almost anything else - markets for instance, can
involve bad/
manipulative practises as well as outcomes.)<br>
<br>
There is ages old distinction between public interest
and private
interest, including organised private interests, and
this distinction
holds now as ever. Any non-governmental body involved in
public
interest issues/ advocacy is a civil society
organisation. In fact I will accept a definition broader
than the one used by
Council of Europe and quoted by Norbert. I will include
organisation
that dont believe in the concept of 'social justice',
may in fact decry
this concept as dangerous to people's liberties, (there
are so many of them, esp in the US - BTW, Milton has
said on this list
that there is no thing like social justice) as long as
such
organisations truly believe that they are working in the
larger public
interest, and not narrow private interests of defined
parties. (No, working, say, on disability rights cannot
be called as
working for private interests of defined parties. It is
public interest
work, and 'disabled people' are here to be considered as
a distinct
'public group' and not a private group. Dont have space
or time to argue the basis of this distinction any
further here.)<br>
<br>
These distinctions are hallowed norms of democratic
public life for
decades now, if not centuries.... The extent of
anti-democratic thought
that has permeated into many people's conception of what
is presented
as a new political model of multistakeholderism is the
reason that many progressive groups have begun to look
at (such
conceptions of) multistakeholderism itself with
suspicion. It is this
kind of normative loose-ness - that works for the
interests of the more
powerful rather than the less powerful, for whom
democracy is supposed to work) - that is
multistakeholderism's
biggest enemy.
<br>
<br>
<br>
The normative basis and boundaries of and within
multistakeholderism,
and its relationship with democracy, have to saved, as
well as
expounded very clearly, for it to be seriously
considered as a
form / system of participatory democracy. (If that is
what MSism really is in the minds of its proponents.)<br>
<br>
In the end, when such discussions as this one takes
place, I can hardly
ever stop myself from re(quoting) the father of free
market thinking,
Adam Smith, who said...<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><font size="4">"People
of the same
trade seldom meet together, even for merriment
and diversion, but the
conversation ends in a conspiracy against the
public, or in some
contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law
cannot hinder people of the same trade from
sometimes assembling together, it ought
to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies,
much less to render them
necessary. "</font><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><font size="4">"To
widen the market
and to narrow the competition, is always the
interest of the
dealers…The proposal of any new law or
regulation of commerce which
comes from this order, ought always to be
listened to with great precaution, and ought
never to be adopted till after having been long
and carefully examined, not only with the most
scrupulous, but with the
most suspicious attention. It comes from an
order of men, whose
interest is never exactly the same with that of
the public, who have generally an interest to
deceive and even oppress the
public, and who accordingly have, upon many
occasions, both deceived
and oppressed it."</font></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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<br>
What a profanity it is to utter something like this in
any
multistakeholder environment... nay, it now seems it may
be
inadmissible even within a IG related CS group.... Adam
Smith I
understand may have been unceremoniously evicted from
such spaces. Poor guy - and he thought he was trying to
make (or mark) market thinking and
economic-logic as a/ the premier force in our social
systems.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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