<p><br>
On Dec 29, 2012 6:31 PM, "Michael Leibrandt" <<a href="mailto:michael_leibrandt@web.de">michael_leibrandt@web.de</a>> wrote: <br>
On other global issues like climate change, where the so-called "hands-off" people are basically using the same argumets ("through innovation, free unregulated markets do the best job"), a significant part of cs has, well, at least some doubts if this is actually the right way to move forward. And the same govenments who are raving about cs support in the IG arena, show significant more distance when it comes to issues where cs statements are not in line with business interests...</p>
<p>Paul Lehto: this is also some good evidence that global cs positions are unprincipled in one or both of these areas, with the attitude towards the status quo controlling the basic position taken. However, when global cs takes positions at variance with business it is much more likely to be a thoughtful view. </p>
<p>> Michael, Berlin<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 29-Dec-2012, at 14:31, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> No, I don't "expect china, Russia or the Arab states to govern in the global<br>
>> public interest" but nor do I expect that the US government, Google or<br>
>> Facebook will operate so as to promote the global public interest either.<br>
>><br>
>> As I was just saying,<br>
>>><br>
>>> The issue of course, for those with a sincere interest in the<br>
>>> well-being of the Internet, is not "hands off the Internet" but rather<br>
>>> to develop means for ensuring that the Internet is "managed" in the<br>
>>> global public interest by all parties.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> This I think is an area where civil society and the technical community<br>
>> should be demonstrating leadership (and hopefully joined by sympathetic<br>
>> governments and potentially elements of the private sector) in defining,<br>
>> articulating and pursuing.<br>
>><br>
>> M<br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>]<br>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:35 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein<br>
>> Cc: Michael Leibrandt; <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!<br>
>><br>
>> Do you expect china, Russia or the Arab states to govern in the global<br>
>> public interest?<br>
>><br>
>> --srs (iPad)<br>
>><br>
>> On 29-Dec-2012, at 13:57, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Hi Michael,<br>
>>><br>
>>> My point in including Google in the "rogues gallery" is simply to<br>
>>> highlight the central role that Google was playing in the recent<br>
>>> Internet Freedom/Hands off the Internet campaign... My point conerning<br>
>>> Facebook is linked to the fact that FB because of its very size and<br>
>>> scope (market<br>
>>> dominance?) is taking on (for some at least) a quasi official status<br>
>>> (the official election results in Ghana were first announced on FB for<br>
>><br>
>> example).<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> But overall my intention was to point to the hypocrisy of the<br>
>>> overwhelming campaigns from certain governments and certain elements<br>
>>> of the private sector, civil society, and the technical community<br>
>>> concerning "hands off the Internet" when it comes from certain<br>
>>> directions (such as the governments of China or Russia) while the same<br>
>>> folks choose to ignore (or at least draw no connection with) quite<br>
>>> blatant and parallel intrusions rather closer to home.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The issue of course, for those with a sincere interest in the<br>
>>> well-being of the Internet, is not "hands off the Internet" but rather<br>
>>> to develop means for ensuring that the Internet is "managed" in the<br>
>>> global public interest by all parties.<br>
>>><br>
>>> M<br>
>>><br>
>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> From: Michael Leibrandt [mailto:<a href="mailto:michael_leibrandt@web.de">michael_leibrandt@web.de</a>]<br>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:46 PM<br>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein<br>
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!<br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Michael,<br>
>>><br>
>>> If your local car dealer rejects to sell you a car, or if the local<br>
>>> night club doesn't let you in, there isn't much you can do about it.<br>
>>> Private providers of goods and services are generally free to decide whom<br>
>><br>
>> to serve.<br>
>>><br>
>>> At least until it becomes an act of discrimination, e. g. against<br>
>>> blacks, gays or jews. Or if the provider has a monopoly (clearly not<br>
>>> the case for Google or Facebook), or has such a strong market position<br>
>>> that it can actually control the market.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So to compare government action and company behaviour is quite difficult.<br>
>>> But there is already enough hypocrisy to think about with regard to<br>
>>> stakeholders of the same category ;-)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Michael, Berlin<br>
>>><br>
>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>> From: "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> To: <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:17 AM<br>
>>> Subject: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> (from today's various Internet news feeds....<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Yes, for sure, these hands off the Internet.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/china-tightens-internet-con">http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/china-tightens-internet-con</a><br>
>>> trol-b<br>
>>> ans-anonymity-allows-government-to-delete-posts/censorship-online-twit<br>
>>> ter-we<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ibo-xinhua-/c3s10510/#.UN2qcI7896I<br>
>>>> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cryyx5l">http://tinyurl.com/cryyx5l</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And these<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121228/07170621508/fisa-is-renewed-">http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121228/07170621508/fisa-is-renewed-</a><br>
>>> with-a<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ll-its-problems-still-intact.shtml<br>
>>>> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j">http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And these<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://torrentfreak.com/google-removed-50-million-pirate-search-result">http://torrentfreak.com/google-removed-50-million-pirate-search-result</a><br>
>>> s-this<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -year-121228/<br>
>>>> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j">http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And these<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/washingtons-blog-facebook-censo">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/washingtons-blog-facebook-censo</a><br>
>>> rs-pro<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> minent-political-critics.html<br>
>>>> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cn72l3v">http://tinyurl.com/cn72l3v</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Maybe a New Year's Resolution: Enough with the hypocrisy!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> M<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>> ------<br>
>>> ----<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________<br>
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
>>>> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> ____________________________________________________________<br>
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> ____________________________________________________________<br>
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
>> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
>><br>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>> Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ____________________________________________________________<br>
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
><br>
> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
><br>
> Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
><br>
</p>