<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Maybe not. I believe your implication was that companies with an international footprint were somehow operating above and beyond the law.<br><br>I find myself agreeing rather more with David Conrad, to be honest, and was trying to expand on what he wrote.</div><div><br>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 28-Dec-2012, at 11:32, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><base href="x-msg://6118/"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks Suresh, you made my case…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; David Conrad<br><b>Cc:</b> michael gurstein; <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] So Who (or What) is Managing Privacy for/by the 1 Billion+<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Facebook is based in the USA and its terms of use is under US jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Any country at all can assert longarm jurisdiction based on facebook's <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">* Having an office of some sort in their country<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">* Having users in their country [doing business]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">* Someone's actions using facebook harming citizens of their country<br><br>In such a case, they can either subpoena facebook's local office in their country if one exists, or they can use MLATs / go through Interpol to reach out, through US law enforcement, to Facebook in the USA.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">As for the rest of it - I think I covered all this when we were talking about google just the other day, and I don't propose to repeat myself any more than I already have.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On 28-Dec-2012, at 9:21, David Conrad <<a href="mailto:drc@virtualized.org">drc@virtualized.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Michael,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Dec 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Life is too short to play silly word games…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Agreed but those sorts of activities seem to consume a huge amount of time/money (e.g., see WCIT and/or what does "enhanced cooperation" really mean? :)). <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">However, in this context, the point I was hinting at is that there is no such thing (as far as I know) of a "global Internet" company -- every company is constrained by the laws of the country (or countries) in which it operates. I'm not a a lawyer but I don't think the Internet creates a new trans-national legal regime for companies, hence the distinction you appear to be trying to draw seems specious.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Facebook with roughly a billion users on the Internet is NOT a global internet company?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">Facebook is, as far as I know, a US company that services an international customer base and as such is subject to US laws regarding how they do business (I'll admit I haven't read their terms and conditions in detail to see if their legal venue varies depending on country of use).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Facebook choosing to play endless incomprehensible games with its privacy settings sufficient to confuse (and outrage) even its most inside of insiders doesn't raise "privacy" issues…?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It might raise privacy issues but it does not raise _right to privacy_ issues. Your rights to privacy are not removed by Facebook changing their terms and conditions. You have the ultimate right to privacy by not subjecting yourself to their endless incomprehensible games.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Would you prefer the government (whose? see my "silly word games" above) impose restrictions on how Facebook can change their terms and conditions?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">-drc<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></body></html>