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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi David<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> David Conrad [mailto:drc@virtualized.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] So Who (or What) is Managing Privacy for/by the 1 Billion+<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Michael,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Dec 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Life is too short to play silly word games…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Agreed but those sorts of activities seem to consume a huge amount of time/money (e.g., see WCIT and/or what does "enhanced cooperation" really mean? :)). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] Agreed…</span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>However, in this context, the point I was hinting at is that there is no such thing (as far as I know) of a "global Internet" company -- every company is constrained by the laws of the country (or countries) in which it operates. I'm not a a lawyer but I don't think the Internet creates a new trans-national legal regime for companies, hence the distinction you appear to be trying to draw seems specious.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] I'm not a lawyer either nor a privacy expert but I'll refer back to the earlier four points I made in responding to Michael Leibrandt concerning the need to adjust current institutions to respond to the transformational changes that the Internet is bringing about… I made those points in the context of taxation but I think they apply equally to issues of privacy…<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1. globalization including in the transfer and sale of immaterial (virtual or virtualized) goods and services (</span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>or privacy and the capacity for massive accumulation, and processing of information across multiple jurisdictions and seemingly unconnected data basis and information sources<i>) is becoming transformative both in volume and in substance as a result of the Internet... National administrative and political regimes (including in taxation </i>and privacy<i>) are struggling to keep up and in many cases appear to be falling behind--hence the current complaints from largely OECD countries concerning the tax related behaviours of companies like Google and Facebook. <o:p></o:p></i></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2. a further effect of the Internet is to render national boundaries much much more porous/fluid/transparent/immaterial than previously. While some corporations (and individuals) are massively able to capitalize on this; these appear to be restricted to only a very few countries who in turn appear to be sufficiently well positioned and resourced to profit while others lack sufficient resources to intervene or even have oversight over these processes let alone ensure significant local benefits (</span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>or the means to intervene on behalf of the interests of its citizens including in areas such privacy<i>). This suggests the need for some sort of global oversight mechanism since no single national regime is able to effectively respond in these areas.<o:p></o:p></i></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>3. the issue under discussion here is less whether past behaviours were legal or not (leaving aside the ethics of not paying ones' "fair share" </span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>or having terms and conditons of service to which customers sign on<i>) but whether certain actions/interventions are either deliberately or by happenstance directed towards a "political" intervention so as to preclude the type of globalized "Hands On" actions that might be warranted given the changing legal, taxation and other circumstances that the Internet is precipitating.<o:p></o:p></i></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4. Internet enabled globalized and digitized communications; commerce; production, management and distribution all indicate the need for an equally globalized set of institutions and actions in support of a globalized public interest including in the area of taxation (</span></i></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>and privacy<i>) but more broadly concerning the distribution of the benefits (and costs </i>and risks<i>) of these processes.<o:p></o:p></i></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Facebook with roughly a billion users on the Internet is NOT a global internet company?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Facebook is, as far as I know, a US company that services an international customer base and as such is subject to US laws regarding how they do business (I'll admit I haven't read their terms and conditions in detail to see if their legal venue varies depending on country of use).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Facebook choosing to play endless incomprehensible games with its privacy settings sufficient to confuse (and outrage) even its most inside of insiders doesn't raise "privacy" issues…?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It might raise privacy issues but it does not raise _right to privacy_ issues. Your rights to privacy are not removed by Facebook changing their terms and conditions. You have the ultimate right to privacy by not subjecting yourself to their endless incomprehensible games.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Would you prefer the government (whose? see my "silly word games" above) impose restrictions on how Facebook can change their terms and conditions?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] Best<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-drc<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>