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<font face="Verdana">On the other hand, carrying on our exploration
of the English language, to illustrate what a genuine misleading
statement or lie is, </font>let me refer to the WCIT assessment
by Eli Dourado, that Lee forwarded. And which all of you who
reacted so viciously to my article, read in complete silence, and
perhaps with approval, knowing about the untruths, since many of you
were 'on the ground' and have otherwise following the WCIT closely.
<br>
<br>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/12/behind-closed-doors-at-the-uns-attempted-takeover-of-the-internet/"><http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/12/behind-closed-doors-at-the-uns-attempted-takeover-of-the-internet/></a></pre>
<br>
(BTW, Eli is co-founder of WCITleaks, an outstanding contribution
indeed, but at Dubai he was a part of the US delegation, and in the
article liberally use the collective 'we' as referring to the US
delegation)<br>
<br>
In the article he says, rather blithely, that 54 countries
immediately followed US's position of not signing the treaty. We all
know that 54 is the total number of countries who have not (yet)
signed the treaty. This number includes those who followed the US
and declared they will not sign the treaty (I think no more than
12-20) and those who wanted to go home and consult before making
their decision. The important fact in this regard is that in 1988,
75 countries signed later on, after they went home from the meetin.<br>
<br>
However, the article clearly suggests, 54 countries <i><b>refused
to</b></i> sign the treaty. To quote ' Fifty-four other
countries took the
same position (as the US), drawing sharp battle lines over the
Internet and its
future governance.
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<br>
Now this is what is called a (extremely) misleading statement,
rather, possibly, a lie. And it is this kind of statement that
actually conveys a completely wrong picture about a very basic set
of facts about the meeting. <br>
<br>
Then, later on in the article, Eli says, "Sweden said that it would
need to consult with its capital (code in UN-speak for “not
signing”)"<br>
<br>
We all know that delegations even when they are on the verge on
signing something often seek time to 'consult with the capital'. So,
Eli assertion is completely wrong. And if it is on this ignorance
that he thought 54 countries than hadnt signed wont sign then well,
it is not a lie, but an extremely misleading statement made out of
ignorance. Which level of ignorance is however a bit difficult to
excuse he being on the ground , part of the US delegation, in the
middle of all the talk, but I am willing to give him the benefit of
doubt.<br>
<br>
But it is difficult to give the same benefit of doubt to all those
who seem to know so much and who passed this article without raising
their grandiose banners about facts and right representation... <br>
<br>
Similarily, earlier, in a discussion on this list, Peter Hellmonds
in his email listed the number 57, which refers to those who havent
yet signed, as being "opposed' (to the treaty). Even after I pointed
out this misrepresentation he made no corrections...<br>
<br>
Now this is what is a misleading statement, or, if some people
prefer to call it so, a lie....<br>
<br>
Just basic English lessons...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
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<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 22 December 2012 12:17 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:50D55783.7030108@itforchange.net" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
Hopefully we are done with the inquest into figurative and other
meanings of 'walkout', though we all know it was never really
about it. Before I come to what it really is or was about, let me
too indulge a bit on the meaning and context of 'walking out'.....<br>
<br>
1. When countries declare their disassociation from a ongoing
treaty etc process, it is very often called out as a walkout.
Walking out of trade talks, climate negotiations, doha round of
WTO.... Such is a regular use of the phrase.<br>
<br>
2. WCIT was an event with the sole objective of negotiating a
treaty. Declaring the intention not to sign the treaty as the
process is still on is called as walking out on or of the
process..... That is what the US did, and that is a walkout. (By
the way, the head of US delegation was reported to use the term
'waking out of WCIT' is a figurative manner mid way during the
conference. Although he later denied he said what was attibuted to
him, the concerned reporter, I think from CommDay, later confirmed
that he had indeed said so.)<br>
<br>
3. Being from a poor Southern background, I am forced to take the
cover of what an American said. Well, a regular columnist of the
New York Times, Eric Pfanner wrote that US "refused to sign the
document and <b>left in a huff</b>"... Did anyone see the US
huffing.. Were the members of the US delegation huffing or the
whole country.... Those on the ground can please let me know. I am
really very eager. Avri, Adam, McTim, Rony..... any one of you
know the 'facts' in this case....<br>
<br>
4. I knew the vulnerabilities of a poor Southie writing what would
get forwarded to the mighty in the IG space... I knew that the
wolves are out there..... and so, I actually quoted Eric Pfanner
in my article. And it was from his expression that I built the
'walking out' thing..... Hope, a day will come when we from the
post-colonial South would not need to do such kinds of things to
earn legitimacy for simple facts that otherwise are there for
anyone to see..... I must have read 40-50 articles and statements
and postings before I wrote what I wrote, because, as I said, I
knew the wolves will come pouncing. And they did come in any case,
if for nothing else, to interrogate the use of English language by
me....<br>
<br>
5. I am sure Terry Kramer himself must have read the NYT
article... I did not see him or anyone else issue angry
disclaimers for factual inaccuracy which they definitely would
have if there indeed would have been one (I mean about 'leaving in
a huff'). So, this is a case of the above mentioned wolves being
more loyal then the emperor. Very worrying tendency for civil
society indeed. <br>
<br>
6. And of course, all of you too read the referred NYT article,
which was forwarded by me with the subject like 'NYT expresses
surprise at US <b>walkout</b>'.<br>
<br>
7. There continues to be many articles in the Northern press using
the term 'US walkout' for what happened, most of them though
agreeing with what the US did, which is not the point here. It is
just about the use of that term and the kind of vicious reaction
that it attracted.<br>
<br>
The vicious reaction was of course to forcefully shut up anyone
who but dare give a view or analysis which does not meekly accept
the dominant discourse on the subject - which, in my view is
guided and led by the global political an economic elites, who
unfortunately have been able to build a very loyal following in
what is being called as civil society. As said, I see this as a
very disturbing trend. Therefore the issue is beyond just the
uncivility of the response, it is about what and who do they
represent to become so vicious just on reading an opinion piece
that says that US walked out of the treaty process, and may have
made a diplomatic blunder in doing so. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 22 December 2012 09:28
AM, Tracey Naughton wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4DDC5AF2-5051-4A05-A098-6D653C4869A6@traceynaughton.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div>Arguing about English is an excluding distraction not
conducive to the basis of multi-stakeholder dialogue. Sad to
see on a CS list. The article was an opinion piece.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, as someone who remains very interested in the
post WSIS goings on, I have appreciated the diversity of
opinions that have emerged to assist me with understanding
what actually happened at WCIT, so thanks for your
enthusiastic discussions.<br>
<br>
Tracey Naughton
<div>
<div>Australia</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On 22 Dec 2012, at 12:22 PM, "michael gurstein" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
of this phony outrage is a bit much…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Being
outraged about a zillion dollar corporation not wanting
to pay its fair share of taxes… that's something to be
outraged about…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Being
outraged at countries in the North turning their backs
on agreements to extend broadband access to countries in
the South… that's something to be outraged about…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Being
outraged at countries not willing to sign agreements
re-interating already agreed to commitments in the area
of Human Rights… that's something to be outraged about…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But
whether the US walked out, tromped out, slid out, or
flew out of the meeting on gossamer wings (after
refusing to sign an agreement accepted by 2/3rds of the
countries attending) … that seems to me to be a matter
of the utmost triviality … of interest, dare I say, only
to those who don't have anything more substantial to
argue against…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Koven Ronald<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 4:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] A false consensus is
broken<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">What
the devil is a "figurative walkout" ? There was
misrepresentation or factual error. Period. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">No
reputable media outlet would or should accept that. A
correction would be in order.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Orwellian
language is not in order.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">If
we can't count on basic intellectual honesty, there is
no sense in these discussions. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Bests,
Rony Koven<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Paul Lehto <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: governance <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>;
Avri Doria <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
Cc: michael gurstein <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:02 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] A false consensus is
broken<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
id="AOLMsgPart_2_2a10f422-fe87-4930-9d40-52e6c7058ec7">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
But what is truly at issue is not a "fact"
like whether someone physically locomoted
using their legs in order to leave a meeting.
"Walked out" has both literal and figurative
meaning, and Parminder - as was obvious to me
at least - intended the phrase in a figurative
way. This should be especially obvious
because it was a country (having no legs) that
walked out, not a specific person. <br>
<br>
Since it appears some have appointed
themselves inquisitors and made a charge of
inaccuracy against Parminder, I assert my
neutrality (not even sure why people are so
hot on this), and <b>appoint myself judge and
dismiss this claim, </b>on the grounds that
"walked out" has clearly figurative meaning
and the actual facts, even as alleged by the
inquisitors, fit without the broad meaning of
"walked out". :) <br>
<br>
The key word in Michael's question was
"pre-occupation." Why the <u>pre-occupation</u>
with this? It appears that question is
unlikely to be answered. And I won't rule on
it either, since I don't have enough facts
before me to do so. :) <br>
<br>
Paul Lehto, J.D.<br>
<br>
PS If anyone has a problem with me being the
self-appointed judge here, then they should
have a very similar problem with those who
have accused and also called this an open and
shut case of "you can't have your own facts" -
which is just judgment in a different form,
and a self-appointed judgment at that. In
order to reach my "judgment" I've looked at
the facts in the light most favorable to the
accused, given the rights of free expression
at stake. <br>
<br>
All we really have here is what could be a
valuable discussion about the extent to which
there was or wasn't a <i>figurative</i> walk
out, and that could be enlightening given the
personal observations of some on the list but
which devolved into something more <i>ad
hominem</i> in the nature of a game of
gotcha.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">On
Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Avri Doria
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 21 Dec 2012, at 10:13, michael gurstein
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Or Parminder used/quoted colourful
journalistic language in a journalistic
medium...<br>
><br>
> Anyway, why this pre-occupation with
one perhaps infelicitous turn of
(journalistic/diplomatic?) phrase ... Is
this the US Congress/Fox News where a
fairly comprehensible mispeak can lead to
a total "gothcha" pre-occupation (the
Benghazi "discussions") for purely
political purposes to the exclusion of
substantive debate...<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">It
is simple:<br>
<br>
Because you are not permitted to have your
own facts.<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#888888"><br>
<span class="hoenzb">avri</span><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
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<br>
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P.O. Box 1 <br>
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<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></tt></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre>
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<div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br>
<span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br>
<span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br>
<span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br>
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