<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Disagreeing with your position constitutes a "walkout" ? </font><br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: michael gurstein <gurstein@gmail.com><br>
To: governance <governance@lists.igcaucus.org>; 'Koven Ronald' <kovenronald@aol.com><br>
Sent: Sat, Dec 22, 2012 2:23 am<br>
Subject: RE: [governance] A false consensus is broken<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_1_5f043e7e-e4b1-42b0-8617-61cca31d8df3">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">All of this phony outrage is a bit much…</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Being outraged about a zillion dollar corporation not wanting to pay its fair share of taxes… that's something to be outraged about…</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Being outraged at countries in the North turning their backs on agreements to extend broadband access to countries in the South… that's something to be outraged about…</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Being outraged at countries not willing to sign agreements re-interating already agreed to commitments in the area of Human Rights… that's something to be outraged about…</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">But whether the US walked out, tromped out, slid out, or flew out of the meeting on gossamer wings (after refusing to sign an agreement accepted by 2/3rds of the countries attending) … that seems to me to be a matter of the utmost triviality … of interest, dare I say, only to those who don't have anything more substantial to argue against…</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">M</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org?">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Koven Ronald<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 4:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; <a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] A false consensus is broken</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">What the devil is a "figurative walkout" ? There was misrepresentation or factual error. Period. </span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">No reputable media outlet would or should accept that. A correction would be in order.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Orwellian language is not in order.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">If we can't count on basic intellectual honesty, there is no sense in these discussions. </span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Bests, Rony Koven</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Paul Lehto <<a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: governance <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>; Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
Cc: michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:02 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] A false consensus is broken</span></div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_2a10f422-fe87-4930-9d40-52e6c7058ec7">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
But what is truly at issue is not a "fact" like whether someone physically locomoted using their legs in order to leave a meeting. "Walked out" has both literal and figurative meaning, and Parminder - as was obvious to me at least - intended the phrase in a figurative way. This should be especially obvious because it was a country (having no legs) that walked out, not a specific person. <br>
<br>
Since it appears some have appointed themselves inquisitors and made a charge of inaccuracy against Parminder, I assert my neutrality (not even sure why people are so hot on this), and <b>appoint myself judge and dismiss this claim, </b>on the grounds that "walked out" has clearly figurative meaning and the actual facts, even as alleged by the inquisitors, fit without the broad meaning of "walked out". :) <br>
<br>
The key word in Michael's question was "pre-occupation." Why the <u>pre-occupation</u> with this? It appears that question is unlikely to be answered. And I won't rule on it either, since I don't have enough facts before me to do so. :) <br>
<br>
Paul Lehto, J.D.<br>
<br>
PS If anyone has a problem with me being the self-appointed judge here, then they should have a very similar problem with those who have accused and also called this an open and shut case of "you can't have your own facts" - which is just judgment in a different form, and a self-appointed judgment at that. In order to reach my "judgment" I've looked at the facts in the light most favorable to the accused, given the rights of free expression at stake. <br>
<br>
All we really have here is what could be a valuable discussion about the extent to which there was or wasn't a <i>figurative</i> walk out, and that could be enlightening given the personal observations of some on the list but which devolved into something more <i>ad hominem</i> in the nature of a game of gotcha.<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 21 Dec 2012, at 10:13, michael gurstein wrote:<br>
<br>
> Or Parminder used/quoted colourful journalistic language in a journalistic medium...<br>
><br>
> Anyway, why this pre-occupation with one perhaps infelicitous turn of (journalistic/diplomatic?) phrase ... Is this the US Congress/Fox News where a fairly comprehensible mispeak can lead to a total "gothcha" pre-occupation (the Benghazi "discussions") for purely political purposes to the exclusion of substantive debate...<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">It is simple:<br>
<br>
Because you are not permitted to have your own facts.<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
<span class="hoenzb">avri</span><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a target="_blank" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br>
<br clear="all"><br>
-- <br>
Paul R Lehto, J.D.<br>
P.O. Box 1 <br>
Ishpeming, MI 49849 <br>
<a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a><br>
906-204-4965 (cell)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_2a10f422-fe87-4930-9d40-52e6c7058ec7"><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">____________________________________________________________</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">To be removed from the list, visit:</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">For all other list information and functions, see:</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a target="_blank" href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Translate this email: <a target="_blank" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span></tt></pre></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<!-- end of AOLMsgPart_1_5f043e7e-e4b1-42b0-8617-61cca31d8df3 -->
</div>
</font>