<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I guess this thread started here, didn't notice it'd moved<br><div>
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<div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">William Drake <<a href="mailto:william.drake@UZH.CH">william.drake@UZH.CH</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">December 19, 2012 4:35:09 PM GMT+01:00<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [NCSG-Discuss] US, UK and Canada refuse to sign UN's internet treaty</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">William Drake <<a href="mailto:william.drake@UZH.CH">william.drake@UZH.CH</a>><br></span></div><br><div>On Dec 19, 2012, at 5:02 AM, Avri Doria wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi Milton,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">A point I think you miss is that the word "Internet' does not need to be spelled out for the hooks to be there for Internet control.<br></blockquote><br>+1 <br><br>I've been puzzled by the insistence on this point. We spent two weeks in Dubai talking about almost nothing but the Internet and that is clearly what many administrations think is covered in the provisions on OAs, spam, security, exchange points, nondiscrimination/states rights, routing, and so on, not to mention the resolution. We'll see how things go in the implementation phase. <br><br>The other point is obviously that if not for the "keep the net out of it" campaigning that's been so derided by the ITU, friendly states, and some bloggers, the word Internet would be all over the text. So for anyone to look at the final, note its absence, and proclaim see, there was nothing to worry about, totally misses the point that it was the worrying that made the nothing, such as it is perceived to be.<br><br>Bill<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">e.g.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">What is telecommunications about SPAM - no matter what euphemism they use<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">What kind of security is there in telecommunications beyond robustness.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And if ROA isn't good enough anymore, who exactly is going to be covered by AOA?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">You think that doing a word search is analysis of the text? After spending 23 days and nights among these folk I have lot of respect for their ability to use language and to say what they want to say without using the red flagged words.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">As I have said elsewhere, I think they negotiated to a drawl. the Internet is in the ITRs even of the words aren't, but subtly and not in any way near as strong and emphatic as they (many Member states) want and will keep pushing for it. This is a tussle that isn't even close to finished.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And I can't wait for the next episodes.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">avri<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">PS. I do beleive the camel got its nose in the tent.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 19 Dec 2012, at 01:46, Milton L Mueller wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: NCSG-Discuss [mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU] On Behalf Of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Avri Doria<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:30 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">In this case, the ITR treaty, was seen as threatening the Internet and<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Internet governance in some ways, especially with regard to Internet<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">content and the scope of Member State and ITU control over the Internet.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">For me one the major issues related to the security and robustness of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the Internet being a Member State responsibility.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Milton L Mueller] Avri,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Did you notice that the word Internet does not appear in the ITRs?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ARTICLE 5A<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Security and robustness of networks<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">41B Member States shall individually and collectively<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">endeavour to ensure the security and robustness of international<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">telecommunication networks in order to achieve effective use thereof and<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">avoidance of technical harm thereto, as well as the harmonious<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">development of international telecommunication services offered to the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">public.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Milton L Mueller] international telecommunication services is not "Internet". And have you read all <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">First what is security at the telecommunication layer other that<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">robustness? And what does it mean to apply this security not only to<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the physical network but also to harmonious development... The worst<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Milton L Mueller] ...of services. Harmonious development of services. No one knows wtf that means. If your point is that vague calls for peace and harmony can do enormous harm in the international sphere, better take a look at virtually every resolution, every document that comes out of the UN system. Better yet, give us one example, just ONE, of how the ITRs or any similar treaty have been used in the past to expand scope beyond what its drafters intended, beyond what the language says <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">power of the ITRs is what they allow Member States to do inside their<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">countries with permission of international law. Also what is envisioned<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Milton L Mueller] which they do already. With or without permission<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It does not take much imagination to see the future actions of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">repressive states with regard to their power to protect the security of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the network from disharmony. <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Milton L Mueller] it does not take any imagination at all, because it is already happening - in dozens of jurisdictions. This provision does exactly nothing. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>