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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 December 2012 03:37 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:50C9A8FD.3020000@itforchange.net" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 13 December 2012 02:25
PM, Adam Peake wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFabd1JAx-fB0WCkgcMbxPh4U29o=KjK0h1vCs166dQfeJ+PRQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><snip>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well not really as taxes are national. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Even when the business activities are global? Not really, Adam. </blockquote>
<br>
I mean that while tax accrual is of course national, the issue of
fair accrual and distribution in case of global businesses,
especially when transacted in the global cyberspace, in indeed an
international issue and not just national...<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:50C9A8FD.3020000@itforchange.net" type="cite">And
since a developing country quote will perhaps hardly suffice, here
is one from a EU document<br>
<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<blockquote>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm">“E-commerce is, by its nature, a
truly global process and no tax jurisdiction, acting in
isolation, can resolve all the issues it raises. ... The
successful administration and application of taxes will to a
great extent depend on, inter alia, achieving an international
consensus...” </p>
<br>
</blockquote>
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</style>For corporate income taxes too, OECD has a model treaty, which
most OECD countries follow. <br>
<br>
So, you see, we need to address an appropriate international
level/ forum for the google tax avoidance problem we are facing. <br>
<br>
It surprises me no end how when the issue is of interest to the
most powerful countries and businesses, global controls and norms
are sought - in trade, IP, and even free expression (fronting for
free digital trade)...... and in the case of economic and social
issues that concern the marginalised most, even when the obvious
levers of doing anything are global, we are pushed to national
jurisdictions --- mostly knowing well that in the globally
networked world, national jurisdictions, especially of the
developing countries, have little policy power left. This is
unfair. This is what developing countries and those who purport to
speak for the most marginalised must resist in these global
spaces.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFabd1JAx-fB0WCkgcMbxPh4U29o=KjK0h1vCs166dQfeJ+PRQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> So I would recommend we draft a letter and send to
respective ICT ministries, treasury and appropriate MPs (or
equivalent.) And to the countries such as Ireland,
Luxembourg, etc favored by companies like Google, Amazon
eyc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="im">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> to google would be just posturing.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
You means that they would not pay heed to civil society's
voice/ statement on this, and not bother to respond? If
nothing else, that will be interesting to note, given the
numerous close compacts with civil society that google has
worked up in these last few months on many global IG
issues.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(disclosure, GLOCOM hosts a Google Policy Fellow)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"> parminder <br>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at
1:40 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com"
target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:33 PM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
<font face="Verdana">Rather shameful
that google paid 3 percent tax on
its overseas profit!! It surely
leaves it with a lot of money to
spend in lobbying and advocacy
efforts to keep global markets free
for its unlettered operations...
Like organising campaigns against
ITU, German legislature, and so on.
<br>
<br>
Would IGC write an open letter to
Google that its tax evasion policy
is anti people, and it should pays
its taxes where it makes its profit.
(Or is it that the IG civil society
does not go into such
re-distributional questions ) It
is not rhetorical but a real
question to the list, and its
coordinator. <br>
</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>What does the list think? </div>
<div>+1 if you think the IGC should write a
letter to Google</div>
<div>-1 if the IGC should not write a letter
to Google</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As always the IGC decides </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font
face="Verdana"><span><font
color="#888888"> <br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></font>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Wednesday 12 December
2012 09:37 PM, Salanieta T.
Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">More on
Bloomberg: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in-no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html"
target="_blank">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in-no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html</a><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:48
AM, Salanieta T.
Tamanikaiwaimaro <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com"
target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Somehow it feels that
there is a targeted
media campaign out
against the likes of
Google and other mncs -
the timing of the
release is almost
impeccable with the
WCIT. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Source: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10"
target="_blank">http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<h1><span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Google
“can make money
without doing evil”
(as it evades $2bn in
taxes)</span></h1>
<div>Posted By <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/go/?ct=9&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank">TelecomTV
One</a> , <span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">12
December 2012</span> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10#comments"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank"><span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">1</span> Comments</a> | <span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;font-size:11px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;white-space:nowrap"><img
moz-do-not-send="true" title="0 people rated this an average of 3/5"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;border:0px"> <img
moz-do-not-send="true" title="0 people rated this an average of 3/5"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;border:0px"> <img
moz-do-not-send="true" title="0 people rated this an average of 3/5"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;border:0px"> <span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">(0)</span></span> <br
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">
<span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Tags:</span> <i
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=122&tagname=Google"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank">Google</a></i> <i
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=6972&tagname=corporate"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank">corporate</a></i> <i
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=434&tagname=tax"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank">tax</a></i> <i
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=365&tagname=Finance"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(205,153,0)" target="_blank">Finance</a></i></div>
<div>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">
<span
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">As
the net closes
around the
multinationals that
avoid paying
corporation taxes,
Google is accused of
saving $2bn by
routing income
through a “Double
Irish Dutch
Sandwich”, paying
tax of just 3.2 per
cent on its overseas
profits. Guy Daniels
reports.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">
</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Three
questions. One; where
do you stand on the
subject of tax
avoidance? We at
TelecomTV believe that
individuals and
corporations have a
duty to pay their fair
share of tax. By fair,
we mean whatever
respective governments
rule to be the legal
requirement (after
all, in most
countries, we voted
the politicians in to
office). By all means
try and mitigate the
amount of tax you have
to pay, using whatever
accepted mechanisms
are available. But
avoidance? That just
means somebody else
(with far less access
to expensive and
clever advisors) has
to contribute to your
share as well.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Second
question: how do you
define evil? The
Oxford English
Dictionary defines
evil as “profoundly
immoral and wicked” or
“something which is
harmful or
undesirable”. In my
book, that means tax
avoidance is evil,
simple as that.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Third
and final question: Is
Google evil? If you
believe that avoiding
tax is wrong
(especially through
aggressive and
mind-boggling
complicated avoidance
schemes) and if you
believe that depriving
society of tax
revenues is wrong (and
so reducing the level
of available State
support for the most
needy) and could be
described as an evil
act, then surely you
must conclude that
Google is acting in an
evil manner.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">An
investigative report
by <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in-no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(57,48,44)" target="_blank">Bloomberg</a> has
discovered that Google
avoided about $2
billion in worldwide
income taxes in 2011
by shifting $9.8
billion in revenues
into a Bermuda shell
company – almost
double its total from
three years ago. The
information was
disclosed in a
November filing by a
Google subsidiary in
the Netherlands, which
was discovered by
reporters from
Bloomberg.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">It
appears that Google
legally routed profits
from overseas
subsidiaries into
Bermuda, which doesn’t
have a corporate
income tax, thereby
enabling it to cut its
overall tax rate
almost in half.
Bloomberg says the
amount moved to
Bermuda is equivalent
to about 80 per cent
of Google’s total
pretax profit in 2011.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Tax
evasion and avoidance
costs the European
Union a staggering €1
trillion a year.
That’s worth dwelling
on for a moment
longer…. €1 trillion.
No wonder politicians
are now acting to try
and prevent this
financial loss and
branding such acts as
scandalous and
immoral.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Bloomberg
has a good quote from
a UK-based tax
accountant, which
pretty much sums up
the feeling in Europe
at the moment.
According to Richard
Murphy of Tax
Research:</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px
0px 0px 40px"><cite
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">“The
tax strategy of
Google and other
multinationals is a
deep embarrassment
to governments
around Europe. The
political awareness
now being created in
the UK, and to a
lesser degree
elsewhere in Europe,
is: It’s us or them.
People understand
that if Google
doesn’t pay,
somebody else has to
pay or services get
cut.”</cite></p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Just
look what happened to
Starbucks. When the
public discovered the
US coffee giant paid
zero taxes in the UK
(yes, absolutely
nothing at all), it
started to boycott the
chain.</p>
<div
style="padding:0px;margin:15px
0px
10px;text-align:center">
<div
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:10px">Advertisement</div>
</div>
As a result, Starbucks
was forced to
“volunteer” to pay
taxes…
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">
</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">The
UK is Google’s
second-biggest market,
responsible for about
11 per cent of its
sales. Of the $4
billion it turned over
last year, it paid UK
corporation tax of
less than $10 million.
Bloomberg says Google
avoids tax by using an
Irish subsidiary to
collects revenues from
ads sold in the UK,
which then pays
royalties to another
Irish subsidiary whose
legal residence is in
Bermuda. Payments are
then sent to yet
another subsidiary in
the Netherlands (with
no employees, note)
before finally
reaching the tax haven
of Bermuda.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Sounds
pretty ‘evil’ to me.
And if so, then that’s
against the internet
company’s guiding
principles. Stated
clearly on the “Ten
Things We Know to be
True” page on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.google.com/about/company/philosophy/"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(57,48,44)"
target="_blank">Google</a>’s
website is the
following:</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px
0px 0px 40px"><cite
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">“You
can make money
without doing evil.”</cite></p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">
I’m sorry, Google, but
I don’t see how
avoiding tax is
anything but evil. Of
course you – and all
companies – have a
duty to shareholders
to maximise profits.
But there are rules.
Some of these are
merely ethical, whilst
some are legal. There
is no indication or
suggestion that Google
has acted illegally,
but there is every
suggestion that it has
acted unethically.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">And
who said you can’t
have ‘ethical
companies’? Of course
you can. I don’t buy
the ‘extreme
capitalist’ viewpoint
that corporations will
only act in
self-interest and
never “do the right
thing” or pay their
fair share. If their
customers start to
boycott their
services, then they’ll
change. It happened
with the sudden
emergence of all the
so-called ‘corporate
responsibility’
positions that all
featured heavily in
annual reports. I
don’t see why it can’t
happen with fair tax
positions.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Other
ICT companies reported
in the media to be
using this complicated
tax evasion (sorry
lawyers, of course I
mean ‘mitigation’…)
structure include
Apple, Facebook,
Microsoft and Oracle.
Unfortunately, Google
– and all the others,
who no doubt will soon
be named and shamed –
will continue their
sharp practices until
they are forced to
make a change. If
governments can’t do
that through the legal
process, then it’s up
to customers to vote
with their feet and
walk away from Google
services. As Richard
Murphy said, consumers
are beginning to get
the message that it’s
“us or them”, and
we’re already being
squeezed by the many
austerity measures
that are in effect to
drag us out of
recession.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Come
on Google, time to
step up to the plate
and show some
leadership. Pay your
fair share. And then
the rest of the ICT
industry can do
likewise. Or else
remove that fatuous
and out-dated “don’t
do evil” slogan from
your website once and
for all.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"><u
style="padding:0px;margin:0px">Further reading: </u>The <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pearse-trust.ie/blog/bid/86105/US-Companies-Their-Use-Of-The-Double-Irish-Dutch-Sandwich"
style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(57,48,44)" target="_blank">Pearse
Trust</a> blog has a
detailed explanation
of the so-called
“Double Irish Dutch
Sandwich” tax scheme.
Please don’t try and
implement it.</p>
<p
style="padding:0px;margin:0px"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Salanieta
Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div>
<div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
<div>Suva</div>
<div>Fiji</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div>
<div>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</div>
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href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851"
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</div>
<div> </div>
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style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
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<div>
<div><br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div>
<div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
<div>Suva</div>
<div>Fiji</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</div>
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