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Michael,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>briefly put, isn't this what Google, Yahoo!, etc. face in China, and with different angles in France and Germany? With data-protection and right-to-be-forgotten in Spain? etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It does make "cloud" management very complex. More lawyers than engineers. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alejandro Pisanty<br>
<div><br>
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<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">
</font></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">!
!! !!! !!!!</font></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"></span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">NEW
PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO</font></span></span></div>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New"></font></span></span> </p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">+52-1-5541444475
FROM ABROAD </font></span></span></p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">+525541444475
DESDE MÉXICO </font></span></span></p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; letter-spacing:normal; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">SMS
+525541444475 <br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
<br>
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com<br>
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty<br>
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614<br>
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty<br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org<br>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </font></span></span></p>
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<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF775948" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>Desde:</b> Michael Kende [Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> miércoles, 12 de diciembre de 2012 10:26<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; governance@lists.igcaucus.org; Bertrand de La Chapelle; Nick Ashton-Hart<br>
<b>CC:</b> Jovan Kurbalija; McTim<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> RE: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thank you Alejandro,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
On one level, the question was triggered by IXPs, but really is more general to do with how this principle of non-tampering of transit traffic would apply when the traffic is stored in the country in some fashion even if it is not intended for that country.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">More broadly, it is true that at one level content and IXPs are separate, but in practical terms it is hard to separate them, as you allude. Countries are now seeing the value of IXPs to lower the cost of tromboning
and latency, and to improve the internet ecosystem, and attracting content is a big part of that – likewise, content providers / CDNs will look at the presence of an IXP when deciding where to put a cache. Further, given economies of scale these IXPs become
more valuable when they serve more countries in the region – hence my original question relating to content hosted in one country that is only destined for neighboring countries. With the portability of content, if one country cannot address liability concerns,
then the content will simply be hosted in a neighboring country, if at all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">By the way, before someone points it out, I realize that ‘countries’ are not essential to deploying an IXP, but increasingly countries are stepping in to help setup an IXP, both to improve their domestic ecosystem
and take compete with neighbors over becoming a hub for traffic.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Michael </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch [mailto:apisan@unam.mx]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 4:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Kende; governance@lists.igcaucus.org; Bertrand de La Chapelle; Nick Ashton-Hart<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jovan Kurbalija; McTim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Michael,
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">the pitfalls of associating content distributors with IXPs become evident. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">The layers principle of Internet architecture helps spot it early on in IXP projects.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">You don't need to get fundamentalist about Internet design principles to manage this. The content distributors and the content owners realize this pretty fast.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">However people should be aware that OSPs and CDNs (and all other OTT, if we adopt that telco terminology) are finding renewed attraction to IXPs, and IXPs may become
self-financing by way of the savings in connectivity to content if these other guys do place enough of their stuff at or close to the IXP. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">The implications with customs, ACTA, the emerging TPP, etc. have to be managed in advance and suitable liability exemptions will have to be built in.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Also, this strains the analogy to the sea - you are talking about the equivalent of building shipping lanes to landlocked countries now. The differences between a built
environment and a few zillion tons of salt water already there are highlighted. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Yours,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Alejandro Pisanty</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">
</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">! !! !!! !!!!</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
</span></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
</span></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">SMS +525541444475
</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"><br>
<span class="apple-style-span"> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico</span><br>
<br>
<span class="apple-style-span">Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com" target="_blank">
http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">
http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614" target="_blank">
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty" target="_blank">
http://twitter.com/apisanty</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org" target="_blank">
http://www.isoc.org</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </span></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="color:black">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Desde:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Michael Kende [Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> miércoles, 12 de diciembre de 2012 07:54<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Bertrand de La Chapelle; Nick Ashton-Hart<br>
<b>CC:</b> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Jovan Kurbalija; McTim<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> RE: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hello Bertrand and Nick,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This is a very interesting thread, as we have been doing a lot of work helping to setup IXPs in countries, and for one project we were working on in an Arab country it seemed that this principle was not commonly
accepted with respect to hosted traffic. In other words, no one worried about traffic that was transiting the country, by terrestrial or submarine cables, but content providers questioned what would happen if that traffic was going to be hosted in a country
where it was illegal, even if it was not meant for consumption in that country. I guess to extend the Sea metaphor this is like shipping something that is legal in the source and destination country, but not in a country where the container may be offloaded
to move to a new ship. Is it illegally in that third country? The equivalent that was cited to us was that it was legal to transport alcohol across some countries where it was illegal, as long as the truck was sealed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The question then is whether this principle of non-tampering with transit traffic holds for traffic that may be stored in the country, even if it was filtered along with other international content before being
viewed by citizens of the country where it was hosted. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thanks</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Michael</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bertrand de La Chapelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Ashton-Hart<br>
<b>Cc:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Jovan Kurbalija; McTim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear Nick, </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Just a brief comment on the issue of "transit traffic". This is an interesting component to explore. As I have often said, I believe that Egypt acted in reference to an implicit emerging international principle
of "<b>non-tampering with transit traffic</b>" when it blocked access to the Internet during the Arab Spring but did not impact the transit traffic serving the easter coast of Africa. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Discussing this in more detail would indeed be useful and could probably be part of an international/global regime. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Best</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Bertrand</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>> wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Funny, I have been thinking of the Law of the Sea for a few weeks as an interesting construct for the legal protection of the open flow of data.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">It is true that there's a built environment to the Internet - but in maritime law ships are also physical and registered with a state. However, the space they travel through, beyond the territorial waters limit,
is open sea and by definition not owned by anyone.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If we used this construct to protect the flow of international data, that might be a workable metaphor. The Law of the Sea embodied in UNCLOS is, after all, largely simply a distillation of internationally-understood
principles about maritime law that go back to the Roman period. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">We could do much worse than an international understanding that data, when transiting any country between a source and destination in third countries, was legally not actually 'in' the territory or subject to the
laws of the state it was transiting, but subject only to an international regime. <br>
<br>
(Bertrand: these ideas are what I was speaking of when I told you at Baku I had an idea for your jurisdiction project that might have potential).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">FWIW: For those who are about to remind me, I am aware that the USG has yet to ratify UNCLOS. It is clear that the current Administration is very much in favour of doing so, however, as are many members of the
legislative branch).</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-- </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Nick Ashton-Hart</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Geneva Representative</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Tel: <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20534%2099%2045" target="_blank">
+41 (22) 534 99 45</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Fax: : <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20594-85-44" target="_blank">
+41 (22) 594-85-44</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B41%2079%20595%205468" target="_blank">
+41 79 595 5468</a> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">USA DID: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20640-5430" target="_blank">
+1 (202) 640-5430</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here: <a href="http://meetme.so/nashton" target="_blank">http://meetme.so/nashton</a></span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic mangling.</span></p>
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On 7 Dec 2012, at 16:23, "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" <<a href="mailto:apisan@unam.mx" target="_blank">apisan@unam.mx</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Jovan,
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">thanks for doing a pretty innovative thing here: discussing ideas. Further, bringing a fresh approach and actual expertise. </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">My long-standing concern for analogies between Internet governance and the laws of the sea is that the Internet is much more a built environment than the sea (not that
the sea is all natural and in fixed form forever, immune to our contamination and our imagintion.) </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">So Internet governance refers not only to rules etc. to live on the existing Internet, but also has to be useful as guidance in its expansion and development. To abuse
your analogy, it's not only about shipping, fishing, and mining, but also about how to actually make the oceans of tomorrow. </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">That brings you to points like: you can use Ostromian theory to understand the tragedy of the commons in fisheries; but can you extend it to Internet governance? What
are the limitations? Can you address concerns from liberals to socialists in a new framework without actually changing the salinity or wanting to reverse the flow of the Humboldt current? </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Any thoughts?</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Yours,</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">Alejandro Pisanty</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">! !! !!! !!!!</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"><a href="tel:%2B52-1-5541444475" target="_blank">+52-1-5541444475</a> FROM ABROAD
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black"><a href="tel:%2B525541444475" target="_blank">+525541444475</a> DESDE MÉXICO
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">SMS <a href="tel:%2B525541444475" target="_blank">
+525541444475</a> <br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
<br>
Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614" target="_blank">
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org" target="_blank">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">Desde:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] en nombre de Jovan Kurbalija
[<a href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> viernes, 07 de diciembre de 2012 08:37<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; McTim<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Well, we have innovation! With the IGF in Bali, and ICANN on a cruise ship, we may have 'beach or floating governance'. Internet governance could be fun!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
I like the metaphor of the ship since it implies our common destiny. We are all passengers of ICANNia or ITUnia or...<b>?</b> Metaphors are also useful to remove our tunnel vision and make us think more creatively. In another metaphor, I hope that Internetistan
will resist Absurdistan (<a href="http://diplo.smugmug.com/ILLUSTRATIONS/Posters-1/4464706_T4FW6r#%21i=1104113260&k=2GsD8hV&lb=1&s=A" target="_blank">here is the map of this fast-growing country</a>).
<br>
<br>
But back to the current reality. Unfortunately, the ICANN cruise ship won't solve the problem of internationalisation. 'Open sea' refers only to freedom of navigation. It does not deal with the status of the ship. All relations on the ship are regulated by
the national law of the ship's flag. ICANNia has to be registered somewhere. One solution could be a flag of convenience such as Liberia or Panama. What happens on the ICANNia is regulated by national law, with no major differences from any other land-based
entity (company, organisation). Yes, ICANNia can sail in whatever direction it wants to sail, but the decision must be made by the captain according to the rules of the flag's state. Extrapolating from the role of the captain on the ship, the ICANNia would
look like military unit. The cruise ship metaphor gets even more interesting when we consider different classes of cabins, rescue operations, etc.<br>
<br>
These thoughts have taken me back to Hugo Grotius's book <i>Mare Liberum</i> that established the "open sea" concept four centuries ago as opposed to the idea of a
<i>Mare Nostrum</i>. </span><b><span style="color:#CC0000"> </span></b><span style="color:black">His relevance for our time is sobering. If we replace 'sea' with 'Internet' we could have the next book on the Internet. Grotius was a very interesting personality.</span><b><span style="color:#CC0000"> </span></b><span style="color:black">
Besides being one of the first international lawyers, he was one of the founders of the 'natural law' school of thought. In addition, he wrote a lot about social contract (before Rousseau, Locke, and others). As a matter of fact, his social contract theory
could be applicable to the Internet. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">When it comes to the concept of open sea, Grotius had an interesting interplay with the political masters of his era. He believed in open sea, but Dutch and British authorities quickly
realised the usefulness of his doctrine. They had the biggest fleets and had ambitions to develop trade and colonial empires. Grotius provided them with the necessary doctrine or 'political software'. However, Grotius always argued that 'open sea' needs rules
and principles in order to be 'open'. Although it was counter-intuitive to the leaders of two growing maritime powers, he managed to convince them that it was in their best interest to 'tame' their comparative powers and ensure the sustainability of their
empires beyond the 17th century. Everything else has written the history, which proved Grotius right. We can draw many parallels, with the necessary caution that historical analogies should be handled with care.
<br>
<br>
While we are waiting for a new Grotius (or Godot), we should review how we debate Internet governance issues. Grotius was a great scholar who mastered the existing rules before he started changing them. We, on the other hand, use well-defined and developed
concepts in a relaxed way. A few examples...<br>
<br>
As we saw, the frequently used metaphor of the open sea does not translate to an open Internet. In many respects, it can lead in the opposite direction (Internet Nostrum).
<br>
<br>
Another example is the role of states' responsibility in the Internet era. This is a well-defined concept in international law. If we want states to be responsible for whatever is originating in their territories (e.g. cyber-attacks, botnets), we have to
give them the tools to ensure their responsibility (mainly state control, regulation, and surveillance). Most writings on state responsibility start from the opposite assumption, i.e. the limited role of the state. With all the creativity and imagination in
the world, we still cannot have it both ways. <br>
<br>
The most topical example of the need for evidence-based policy is the case of the Red Cross name/emblem at ICANN. There are very clear rules for the protection of the Red Cross name/emblem that were adopted some 100 years ago and have been followed, without
reservation, on national and international levels. ICANN was right in protecting the Red Cross name but made the mistake of putting it together with organisations that do not enjoy the same status (the International Olympic Committee).
<br>
<br>
Even if we want to change the rules in order to adjust to the specificities of the Internet era (if any), we have first to master them. I see here an important role for academic and civil society communities. If we had advised ICANN to evaluate the Red Cross
and IOC submissions separately, we could have avoided a lot of policy confusion and wasted time.
<br>
<br>
The GIGANET might consider the evidence-based policy research as the key theme for the next meeting?<br>
<br>
Regards, Jovan </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On 12/6/12 3:31 PM, McTim wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">All, </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If domiciling ICANN in a nation state is problematic, perhaps ICANN could buy this cruise ship as a HQ:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html" target="_blank">http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">It would help solve the problem of internationalisation, be a permanent host for ICANN meetings (2450 berths....saving hotel costs for all) and generate revenue intersessionally. It's a 3-fer, plus it's a snip
@~ 300 million USD!!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-- </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="color:black">Jovan Kurbalija, PhD</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:black">Director, DiploFoundation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="FR-CH" style="color:black">Rue de Lausanne 56
<b>| </b>1202 Geneva <b>| </b>Switzerland</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="color:black">Tel.</span></b><span style="color:black">
</span><span lang="FR-CH" style="color:black"><a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%2022%207410435" target="_blank">+41 (0) 22 7410435</a>
<b>| Mobile.</b> <a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%20797884226" target="_blank">+41 (0) 797884226</a></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="color:black">Email:
</span></b><span lang="FR-CH" style="color:black"><a href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a></span><span style="color:black">
</span><b><span lang="FR-CH" style="color:black">| Twitter:</span></b><span lang="FR-CH" style="color:black"> @jovankurbalija</span><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CH" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">The latest from Diplo:</span></b><span lang="FR-CH" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/currently" target="_blank">today – this week – this month</a>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:red">l</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">
<a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/conferences/innovation" target="_blank">Conference on Innovation in Diplomacy (Malta, 19-20 November 2012)</a>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:red">l</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/courses" target="_blank">new online courses</a></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-- <br>
____________________<br>
Bertrand de La Chapelle</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy (<a href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>)</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Member, ICANN Board of Directors <br>
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br>
<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
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