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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you Parminder, that is very interesting, and I did not know that. According to the original principle described below, though there would not be interference in transit traffic, even if it contained content that violated domestic
rules. But what if that content was stored in the country even though it was not consumed in that country? So in other words, if something is sent from country A to B via C via transit, there would not be any interference, but what if it was stored in a
cache in country C for use by country B?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 4:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wednesday 12 December 2012 07:24 PM, Michael Kende wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Bertrand and Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <snip_<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The question then is whether this principle of non-tampering with transit traffic holds for traffic that may be stored in the country, even if it was filtered along with other international content before being viewed by citizens of the
country where it was hosted. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Michael<br>
<br>
You may know that third party cargo in transit is being impounded in OECD countries for IP violation when the stuff is made on one country and headed for another, and has nothing to do with the impounding jurisdiction. see for instance,
<a href="http://keionline.org/blogs/2009/02/03/intervention-by-brazil-at-wto-general-council-on-seizure-of-500-kilos-of-generic-medicines-by-dutch-customs-aut">
http://keionline.org/blogs/2009/02/03/intervention-by-brazil-at-wto-general-council-on-seizure-of-500-kilos-of-generic-medicines-by-dutch-customs-aut</a><br>
<br>
There have been other cases as well. I understand 'border measures' envisaged under ACTA also enables such in transit seizures of third party goods.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bertrand de La Chapelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Ashton-Hart<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Jovan Kurbalija; McTim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Nick, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Just a brief comment on the issue of "transit traffic". This is an interesting component to explore. As I have often said, I believe that Egypt acted in reference to an implicit emerging international principle of "<b>non-tampering with
transit traffic</b>" when it blocked access to the Internet during the Arab Spring but did not impact the transit traffic serving the easter coast of Africa. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Discussing this in more detail would indeed be useful and could probably be part of an international/global regime. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Bertrand<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Funny, I have been thinking of the Law of the Sea for a few weeks as an interesting construct for the legal protection of the open flow of data.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It is true that there's a built environment to the Internet - but in maritime law ships are also physical and registered with a state. However, the space they travel through, beyond the territorial waters limit, is open sea and by definition
not owned by anyone.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If we used this construct to protect the flow of international data, that might be a workable metaphor. The Law of the Sea embodied in UNCLOS is, after all, largely simply a distillation of internationally-understood principles about maritime
law that go back to the Roman period. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We could do much worse than an international understanding that data, when transiting any country between a source and destination in third countries, was legally not actually 'in' the territory or subject to the laws of the state it was
transiting, but subject only to an international regime. <br>
<br>
(Bertrand: these ideas are what I was speaking of when I told you at Baku I had an idea for your jurisdiction project that might have potential).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FWIW: For those who are about to remind me, I am aware that the USG has yet to ratify UNCLOS. It is clear that the current Administration is very much in favour of doing so, however, as are many members of the legislative branch).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Ashton-Hart<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Geneva Representative<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tel: <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20534%2099%2045" target="_blank">
+41 (22) 534 99 45</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fax: : <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20594-85-44" target="_blank">
+41 (22) 594-85-44</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B41%2079%20595%205468" target="_blank">
+41 79 595 5468</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">USA DID: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20640-5430" target="_blank">
+1 (202) 640-5430</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here: <a href="http://meetme.so/nashton" target="_blank">http://meetme.so/nashton</a></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic mangling.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 7 Dec 2012, at 16:23, "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" <<a href="mailto:apisan@unam.mx" target="_blank">apisan@unam.mx</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">Jovan,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">thanks for doing a pretty innovative thing here: discussing ideas. Further, bringing a fresh approach and actual expertise. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">My long-standing concern for analogies between Internet governance and the laws of the sea is that the Internet is much more a built environment than the sea (not that the
sea is all natural and in fixed form forever, immune to our contamination and our imagintion.) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">So Internet governance refers not only to rules etc. to live on the existing Internet, but also has to be useful as guidance in its expansion and development. To abuse your
analogy, it's not only about shipping, fishing, and mining, but also about how to actually make the oceans of tomorrow. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">That brings you to points like: you can use Ostromian theory to understand the tragedy of the commons in fisheries; but can you extend it to Internet governance? What are
the limitations? Can you address concerns from liberals to socialists in a new framework without actually changing the salinity or wanting to reverse the flow of the Humboldt current? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">Any thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">Yours,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"">Alejandro Pisanty</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif"">! !! !!! !!!!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif"">NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif""><a href="tel:%2B52-1-5541444475" target="_blank">+52-1-5541444475</a> FROM ABROAD
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif""><a href="tel:%2B525541444475" target="_blank">+525541444475</a> DESDE MÉXICO
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Courier New","serif"">SMS <a href="tel:%2B525541444475" target="_blank">
+525541444475</a> <br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
<br>
Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614" target="_blank">
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org" target="_blank">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Desde:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] en nombre de Jovan Kurbalija
[<a href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> viernes, 07 de diciembre de 2012 08:37<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; McTim<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, we have innovation! With the IGF in Bali, and ICANN on a cruise ship, we may have 'beach or floating governance'. Internet governance could be fun!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I like the metaphor of the ship since it implies our common destiny. We are all passengers of ICANNia or ITUnia or...<b>?</b> Metaphors are also useful to remove our tunnel vision and make us think more creatively. In another metaphor, I hope that Internetistan
will resist Absurdistan (<a href="http://diplo.smugmug.com/ILLUSTRATIONS/Posters-1/4464706_T4FW6r#%21i=1104113260&k=2GsD8hV&lb=1&s=A" target="_blank">here is the map of this fast-growing country</a>).
<br>
<br>
But back to the current reality. Unfortunately, the ICANN cruise ship won't solve the problem of internationalisation. 'Open sea' refers only to freedom of navigation. It does not deal with the status of the ship. All relations on the ship are regulated by
the national law of the ship's flag. ICANNia has to be registered somewhere. One solution could be a flag of convenience such as Liberia or Panama. What happens on the ICANNia is regulated by national law, with no major differences from any other land-based
entity (company, organisation). Yes, ICANNia can sail in whatever direction it wants to sail, but the decision must be made by the captain according to the rules of the flag's state. Extrapolating from the role of the captain on the ship, the ICANNia would
look like military unit. The cruise ship metaphor gets even more interesting when we consider different classes of cabins, rescue operations, etc.<br>
<br>
These thoughts have taken me back to Hugo Grotius's book <i>Mare Liberum</i> that established the "open sea" concept four centuries ago as opposed to the idea of a
<i>Mare Nostrum</i>. <b><span style="color:#CC0000"> </span></b>His relevance for our time is sobering. If we replace 'sea' with 'Internet' we could have the next book on the Internet. Grotius was a very interesting personality.<b><span style="color:#CC0000"> </span></b>
Besides being one of the first international lawyers, he was one of the founders of the 'natural law' school of thought. In addition, he wrote a lot about social contract (before Rousseau, Locke, and others). As a matter of fact, his social contract theory
could be applicable to the Internet. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">When it comes to the concept of open sea, Grotius had an interesting interplay with the political masters of his era. He believed in open sea, but Dutch and British authorities quickly realised the usefulness
of his doctrine. They had the biggest fleets and had ambitions to develop trade and colonial empires. Grotius provided them with the necessary doctrine or 'political software'. However, Grotius always argued that 'open sea' needs rules and principles in order
to be 'open'. Although it was counter-intuitive to the leaders of two growing maritime powers, he managed to convince them that it was in their best interest to 'tame' their comparative powers and ensure the sustainability of their empires beyond the 17th
century. Everything else has written the history, which proved Grotius right. We can draw many parallels, with the necessary caution that historical analogies should be handled with care.
<br>
<br>
While we are waiting for a new Grotius (or Godot), we should review how we debate Internet governance issues. Grotius was a great scholar who mastered the existing rules before he started changing them. We, on the other hand, use well-defined and developed
concepts in a relaxed way. A few examples...<br>
<br>
As we saw, the frequently used metaphor of the open sea does not translate to an open Internet. In many respects, it can lead in the opposite direction (Internet Nostrum).
<br>
<br>
Another example is the role of states' responsibility in the Internet era. This is a well-defined concept in international law. If we want states to be responsible for whatever is originating in their territories (e.g. cyber-attacks, botnets), we have to
give them the tools to ensure their responsibility (mainly state control, regulation, and surveillance). Most writings on state responsibility start from the opposite assumption, i.e. the limited role of the state. With all the creativity and imagination in
the world, we still cannot have it both ways. <br>
<br>
The most topical example of the need for evidence-based policy is the case of the Red Cross name/emblem at ICANN. There are very clear rules for the protection of the Red Cross name/emblem that were adopted some 100 years ago and have been followed, without
reservation, on national and international levels. ICANN was right in protecting the Red Cross name but made the mistake of putting it together with organisations that do not enjoy the same status (the International Olympic Committee).
<br>
<br>
Even if we want to change the rules in order to adjust to the specificities of the Internet era (if any), we have first to master them. I see here an important role for academic and civil society communities. If we had advised ICANN to evaluate the Red Cross
and IOC submissions separately, we could have avoided a lot of policy confusion and wasted time.
<br>
<br>
The GIGANET might consider the evidence-based policy research as the key theme for the next meeting?<br>
<br>
Regards, Jovan <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/6/12 3:31 PM, McTim wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">All, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If domiciling ICANN in a nation state is problematic, perhaps ICANN could buy this cruise ship as a HQ:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html" target="_blank">http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It would help solve the problem of internationalisation, be a permanent host for ICANN meetings (2450 berths....saving hotel costs for all) and generate revenue intersessionally. It's a 3-fer, plus it's a snip @~ 300 million USD!!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<b>Jovan Kurbalija, PhD</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
Director, DiploFoundation<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="FR-CH">Rue de Lausanne 56 <b>| </b>1202 Geneva <b>| </b>Switzerland</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<b>Tel.</b> <span lang="FR-CH"><a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%2022%207410435" target="_blank">+41 (0) 22 7410435</a>
<b>| Mobile.</b> <a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%20797884226" target="_blank">+41 (0) 797884226</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<b>Email: </b><span lang="FR-CH"><a href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a></span>
<b><span lang="FR-CH">| Twitter:</span></b><span lang="FR-CH"> @jovankurbalija</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="FR-CH" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The latest from Diplo:</span></b><span lang="FR-CH" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/currently" target="_blank">today – this week – this month</a>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">l</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/conferences/innovation" target="_blank">Conference on Innovation in Diplomacy (Malta, 19-20 November 2012)</a>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">l</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/courses" target="_blank">new online courses</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
____________________<br>
Bertrand de La Chapelle<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy (<a href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Member, ICANN Board of Directors <br>
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br>
<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")<o:p></o:p></p>
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