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Cher Bertrand, dear all, <br>
<br>
I'd even go one step further. In a article published in the
Heidelberg Journal of International Law, I argued that the example
of Egypt is not only reflective of an emerging international
principle but even indicative of the crystallization of the
application of the international customary law norm of
non-interference to other states' Internet access. Indeed, the
stability and functionality of the Intenret can by now be clearly
considered to lie in the common interest. As such, it is protected
by international law. States that violate this common obligation
engage their international responsibility.<br>
<br>
(I'm happy to share the article on an individual basis if you're
interested (but it's in German): <i>K</i><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
mso-ansi-language:DE-AT">ettemann</span></i><span
style="font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";mso-ansi-language:DE-AT">,
Das Internet als internationales Schutzgut:
Entwicklungsperspektiven des Internetvölkerrechts anlässlich des
Arabischen Frühlings [The Internet als a Global Object of
Protection: Perspectives on International Internet Law in Light of
the Arab Spring],</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""
lang="DE"> ZaöRV/Heidelberg Journal of Int'l Law 72 (2012),
469-482</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
mso-ansi-language:DE-AT"><o:p></o:p></span>
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<br>
Kind regards<br>
Matthias<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 11.12.2012 18:11, schrieb Bertrand
de La Chapelle:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGF_KH9Nyyv6AZey=avjXtsoFBMxuD-56RUHSs8v8Y6KB-b9Yw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Dear Nick,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a brief comment on the issue of "transit traffic". This
is an interesting component to explore. As I have often said, I
believe that Egypt acted in reference to an implicit emerging
international principle of "<b>non-tampering with transit
traffic</b>" when it blocked access to the Internet during the
Arab Spring but did not impact the transit traffic serving the
easter coast of Africa. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Discussing this in more detail would indeed be useful and
could probably be part of an international/global regime. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bertrand</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nick
Ashton-Hart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Funny, I have been thinking of the Law of the Sea for
a few weeks as an interesting construct for the legal
protection of the open flow of data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is true that there's a built environment to the
Internet - but in maritime law ships are also physical
and registered with a state. However, the space they
travel through, beyond the territorial waters limit, is
open sea and by definition not owned by anyone.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we used this construct to protect the flow of
international data, that might be a workable metaphor.
The Law of the Sea embodied in UNCLOS is, after all,
largely simply a distillation of
internationally-understood principles about maritime law
that go back to the Roman period. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We could do much worse than an international
understanding that data, when transiting any country
between a source and destination in third countries, was
legally not actually 'in' the territory or subject to
the laws of the state it was transiting, but subject
only to an international regime. <br>
<br>
(Bertrand: these ideas are what I was speaking of when I
told you at Baku I had an idea for your jurisdiction
project that might have potential).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FWIW: For those who are about to remind me, I am
aware that the USG has yet to ratify UNCLOS. It is clear
that the current Administration is very much in favour
of doing so, however, as are many members of the
legislative branch).<br>
<div>-- </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Nick Ashton-Hart</div>
<div>Geneva Representative</div>
<div>Computer & Communications Industry Assocation
(CCIA)</div>
<div>Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20534%2099%2045"
value="+41225349945" target="_blank">+41 (22) 534 99
45</a></div>
<div>Fax: : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20594-85-44"
value="+41225948544" target="_blank">+41 (22)
594-85-44</a></div>
<div>Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B41%2079%20595%205468"
value="+41795955468" target="_blank">+41 79 595 5468</a><span> </span></div>
USA DID: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20640-5430"
value="+12026405430" target="_blank">+1 (202) 640-5430</a>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div><b>Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that
suits us both here: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://meetme.so/nashton" target="_blank">http://meetme.so/nashton</a></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>Sent from my one of my handheld thingies,
please excuse linguistic mangling.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On 7 Dec 2012, at 16:23, "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Baruch" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:apisan@unam.mx" target="_blank">apisan@unam.mx</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="direction:ltr;font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier
New">
Jovan,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>thanks for doing a pretty innovative thing
here: discussing ideas. Further, bringing a
fresh approach and actual expertise. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My long-standing concern for analogies
between Internet governance and the laws of
the sea is that the Internet is much more a
built environment than the sea (not that the
sea is all natural and in fixed form forever,
immune to our contamination and our
imagintion.) </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So Internet governance refers not only to
rules etc. to live on the existing Internet,
but also has to be useful as guidance in its
expansion and development. To abuse your
analogy, it's not only about shipping,
fishing, and mining, but also about how to
actually make the oceans of tomorrow. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That brings you to points like: you can use
Ostromian theory to understand the tragedy of
the commons in fisheries; but can you extend
it to Internet governance? What are the
limitations? Can you address concerns from
liberals to socialists in a new framework
without actually changing the salinity or
wanting to reverse the flow of the Humboldt
current? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yours,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alejandro Pisanty<br>
<div><br>
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px"><span
style="border-collapse:separate;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium
'Times New
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'Times New
Roman';text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><font face="Courier New">! !!
!!! !!!!</font></span></span></div>
<div
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'Times New
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'Times New
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style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><font face="Courier New">NEW
PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE
TELÉFONO</font></span></span></div>
<p><span
style="border-collapse:separate;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium
'Times New
Roman';text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"></span></span> </p>
<p><span
style="border-collapse:separate;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium
'Times New
Roman';text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><font face="Courier New"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B52-1-5541444475"
value="+5215541444475"
target="_blank">+52-1-5541444475</a>
FROM ABROAD </font></span></span></p>
<p><span
style="border-collapse:separate;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium
'Times New
Roman';text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><font face="Courier New"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B525541444475"
value="+525541444475"
target="_blank">+525541444475</a>
DESDE MÉXICO </font></span></span></p>
<p><span
style="border-collapse:separate;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font:medium
'Times New
Roman';text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><font face="Courier New">SMS <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B525541444475"
value="+525541444475"
target="_blank">+525541444475</a>
<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510
Mexico DF Mexico<br>
<br>
Blog: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com"
target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
LinkedIn: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty"
target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614"
target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
Twitter: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/apisanty"
target="_blank">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.isoc.org"
target="_blank">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>
. . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . </font></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Times
New Roman">
<hr>
<div style="direction:ltr"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Desde:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
en nombre de Jovan Kurbalija [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu"
target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> viernes, 07 de
diciembre de 2012 08:37<br>
<b>Hasta:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
McTim<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [governance]
Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new
approach to Internet governance!<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>Well, we have innovation! With the IGF
in Bali, and ICANN on a cruise ship, we
may have 'beach or floating governance'.
Internet governance could be fun!<br>
<div><br>
I like the metaphor of the ship since it
implies our common destiny. We are all
passengers of ICANNia or ITUnia or...<b>?</b>
Metaphors are also useful to
remove our tunnel vision and make us
think more creatively. In another
metaphor, I hope that Internetistan will
resist Absurdistan (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://diplo.smugmug.com/ILLUSTRATIONS/Posters-1/4464706_T4FW6r#%21i=1104113260&k=2GsD8hV&lb=1&s=A"
target="_blank">here is the map of
this fast-growing country</a>).
<br>
<br>
But back to the current reality.
Unfortunately, the ICANN cruise ship
won't solve the problem of
internationalisation. 'Open sea' refers
only to freedom of navigation. It does
not deal with the status of the ship.
All relations on the ship are regulated
by the national law of the ship's flag.
ICANNia has to be registered somewhere.
One solution could be a flag of
convenience such as Liberia or Panama.
What happens on the ICANNia is regulated
by national law, with no major
differences from any other land-based
entity (company, organisation). Yes,
ICANNia can sail in whatever direction
it wants to sail, but the decision must
be made by the captain according to the
rules of the flag's state. Extrapolating
from the role of the captain on the
ship, the ICANNia would look like
military unit. The cruise ship metaphor
gets even more interesting when we
consider different classes of cabins,
rescue operations, etc.<br>
<br>
These thoughts have taken me back to
Hugo Grotius's book <i>Mare Liberum</i>
that established the "open sea" concept
four centuries ago as opposed to the
idea of a
<i>Mare Nostrum</i>. <font
color="#cc0000"><b> </b></font>His
relevance for our time is sobering. If
we replace 'sea' with 'Internet' we
could have the next book on the
Internet. Grotius was a very interesting
personality.<font color="#cc0000"><b> </b></font>
Besides being one of the first
international lawyers, he was one of the
founders of the 'natural law' school of
thought. In addition, he wrote a lot
about social contract (before Rousseau,
Locke, and others). As a matter of fact,
his social contract theory could be
applicable to the Internet. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
When it comes to the concept of open sea,
Grotius had an interesting interplay with
the political masters of his era. He
believed in open sea, but Dutch and
British authorities quickly realised the
usefulness of his doctrine. They had the
biggest fleets and had ambitions to
develop trade and colonial empires.
Grotius provided them with the necessary
doctrine or 'political software'.
However, Grotius always argued that 'open
sea' needs rules and principles in order
to be 'open'. Although it was
counter-intuitive to the leaders of two
growing maritime powers, he managed to
convince them that it was in their best
interest to 'tame' their comparative
powers and ensure the sustainability of
their empires beyond the 17th century.
Everything else has written the history,
which proved Grotius right. We can draw
many parallels, with the necessary caution
that historical analogies should be
handled with care.
<br>
<br>
While we are waiting for a new Grotius (or
Godot), we should review how we debate
Internet governance issues. Grotius was a
great scholar who mastered the existing
rules before he started changing them. We,
on the other hand, use well-defined and
developed concepts in a relaxed way. A few
examples...<br>
<br>
As we saw, the frequently used metaphor of
the open sea does not translate to an open
Internet. In many respects, it can lead in
the opposite direction (Internet
Nostrum).
<br>
<br>
Another example is the role of states'
responsibility in the Internet era. This
is a well-defined concept in international
law. If we want states to be responsible
for whatever is originating in their
territories (e.g. cyber-attacks,
botnets), we have to give them the tools
to ensure their responsibility (mainly
state control, regulation, and
surveillance). Most writings on state
responsibility start from the opposite
assumption, i.e. the limited role of the
state. With all the creativity and
imagination in the world, we still cannot
have it both ways. <br>
<br>
The most topical example of the need for
evidence-based policy is the case of the
Red Cross name/emblem at ICANN. There are
very clear rules for the protection of the
Red Cross name/emblem that were adopted
some 100 years ago and have been followed,
without reservation, on national and
international levels. ICANN was right in
protecting the Red Cross name but made the
mistake of putting it together with
organisations that do not enjoy the same
status (the International Olympic
Committee).
<br>
<br>
Even if we want to change the rules in
order to adjust to the specificities of
the Internet era (if any), we have first
to master them. I see here an important
role for academic and civil society
communities. If we had advised ICANN to
evaluate the Red Cross and IOC submissions
separately, we could have avoided a lot of
policy confusion and wasted time.
<br>
<br>
The GIGANET might consider the
evidence-based policy research as the key
theme for the next meeting?<br>
<br>
Regards, Jovan <br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/6/12 3:31 PM, McTim wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If domiciling ICANN in a nation
state is problematic, perhaps ICANN
could buy this cruise ship as a HQ:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html"
target="_blank">http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would help solve the problem of
internationalisation, be a permanent
host for ICANN meetings (2450
berths....saving hotel costs for all)
and generate revenue intersessionally.
It's a 3-fer, plus it's a snip @~ 300
million USD!!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An
address indicates where it is. A route
indicates how we get there." Jon
Postel<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><b><span>Jovan
<span>Kurbalija</span>, PhD</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span>Director,
<span>
DiploFoundation</span></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
lang="FR-CH">Rue de Lausanne 56
</span><b><span lang="FR-CH">| </span></b><span
lang="FR-CH">1202 Geneva</span><span
lang="FR-CH">
</span><b><span lang="FR-CH">|</span></b><b><span
lang="FR-CH">
</span></b><span lang="FR-CH">Switzerland</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span><b><span>Tel.</span></b><span>
</span><span lang="FR-CH"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%2022%207410435"
value="+41227410435"
target="_blank">+41 (0) 22
7410435</a> </span><b><span
lang="FR-CH">|
</span></b><b><span lang="FR-CH">Mobile.</span></b></span><span
lang="FR-CH"> <a
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href="tel:%2B41%20%280%29%20797884226"
value="+41797884226"
target="_blank">+41 (0)
797884226</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><b><span>Email:
</span></b><span lang="FR-CH"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jovank@diplomacy.edu"
target="_blank">jovank@diplomacy.edu</a></span><span> </span><span>
</span><b><span lang="FR-CH">| </span></b><b><span
lang="FR-CH">Twitter:</span></b><span
lang="FR-CH"> @jovankurbalija</span><span> </span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1f497d"
lang="FR-CH">The latest from
Diplo:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1f497d"
lang="FR-CH">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial"
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/currently"
target="_blank">today – this
week – this month</a>
<b><span style="color:red">l</span></b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/conferences/innovation"
target="_blank">
Conference on Innovation in
Diplomacy (Malta, 19-20 November
2012)</a> <b>
<span style="color:red">l</span>
</b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/courses"
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</blockquote>
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-- <br>
____________________<br>
Bertrand de La Chapelle
<div>Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International
Diplomatic Academy (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>)</div>
<div>Member, ICANN Board of Directors <br>
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br>
<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes"
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Univ.-Ass. Mag. Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
Institut für Völkerrecht und Internationale Beziehungen
Karl-Franzens-Universität Graz
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Blog | internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com
--
Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
Institute of International Law and International Relations
University of Graz
Universitätsstraße 15/A4, 8010 Graz, Austria
T | +43 316 380 6711 (office)
M | +43 676 701 7175 (mobile)
F | +43 316 380 9455
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Blog | internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com</pre>
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