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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 07 December 2012 09:39 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD228CE03@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">So, you object to the use of the term 'US
exceptionalism'! You are on record asserting repeatedly
that you think ICANN should continue to be subject to US
laws, at least in the areas of regulation of non-profits,
competition and FoE...... presumable more...... (in any case
an entity is either subject to a jurisdiction, or it is not;
there are no choices available for an entity to be subject
to some laws and not others). <br>
<br>
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">[Milton L Mueller] One last
attempt to salvage an informed, honest discussion of
this issue.</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Milton, <br>
<br>
An informed honest discussion indeed is possible, and required, on
this important matter, just if you could rein in your haughty
impatience ('last attempt' 'no point discussing this further' kind
of stuff) and not refer to your interlocutors as 'people with no
real ideas' and as someone who cannot be expected to know the
difference between one branch of economics and other.... Just try
it. You will sound much more persuasive in your arguments that
way.... <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD228CE03@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">I am on record, and have been
for years, for favoring the DE-nationalization of
ICANN. Which means that I view the US govt the same
way I view any other govt, I want them out. This is
not “US exceptionalism” but its opposite. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">On the issue of ICANN’s
corporate home, the position is a bit more complex,
but if one is interested in real discussion rather
than posturing, it is not that hard to figure out and
to debate the merits:<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></i></b><!--[endif]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">If ICANN is incorporated as a
private entity, it will have to be in one
jurisdiction. As jurisdictions go, there is nothing
intrinsically worse about the State of California than
other jurisdictions. It may be better than many
others. Yes, this means that US jurisdiction has more
influence in some types of disputes than others. But
special status for the home jurisdiction would be true
regardless of where it is incorporated. So if
Parminder or others would like to make a case for
another state or nation-state jurisdiction, let them
do so. So far, no one has.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></i></b><!--[endif]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">If ICANN is not incorporated
as a private nonprofit, but as an international org
under international law, there are real concerns that
ought to give any internet freedom advocate pause:<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level2 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></i></b><!--[endif]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">International orgs can be
_less_ accountable than a private organization.
Parminder dismisses this concern by waving his hand
and saying that he wants the international treaty to
make sure it is accountable. My response: good luck
with that. Give me one real-world example of when that
has worked, and you might get some traction in this
debate.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level2 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></i></b><!--[endif]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">The current political
situation in the world suggests that the negotiation
of such a treaty would become an opportunity for
states to assert more control of the internet. This is
clear both from the behavior of ICANN’s GAC and from
the behavior of many states in the WCIT. Supporters of
international law such as Parminder need to explain
how they get a treaty and international law that
bypasses these problems. So far, they haven’t.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level2 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">c.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></i></b><!--[endif]--><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">IGP has filed formal comments
suggesting the outlines of international treaty
principles that would limit ICANN’s powers and help to
secure internet freedom, while retaining its status as
a California corp. In other words, Parminder’s charge
that we are apologists for the status quo is simply
wrong. However, in light of the points made in b)
above, we don’t hold out a lot of hope in the current
situation for such a treaty to be ratified. Note the
fate of Brazil’s IG principles which despite
widespread civil society support cannot make it
through the govt. Until there is strong support for
the type of principles we put forth in our proposal it
would be foolish to push ICANN into an international
treaty negotiation.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">Happy to engage in any
reasonable discussion of these points. Not interested
in any tub-thumping about the US and warn others not
to be misled by caricatures and oversimplifications
peddled by people with no real ideas. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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