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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 December 2012 07:32 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">Riaz,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">Like Parminder, you’ve overused
this charge of “American exceptionalism,” to the point where
it reflects more on you than on the target. Indeed if you,
like Parminder, apply it to me it shows that you are
completely ignorant of my writings on the subject or that
you are simply hurling a blanket epithet at whoever is
standing around, whenever they disagree. So, no point in
discussing further.
</span></p>
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<br>
Milton,<br>
<br>
Dont know why you are pulling me into this out of nowhere .... but
if you want me to come in, here i am, at your service :)<br>
<br>
(BTW, I must first say that I find your recent comments to Riaz
extremely rude, and I hope that the concerned duty bearers are
taking note.)<br>
<br>
So, you object to the use of the term 'US exceptionalism'! You are
on record asserting repeatedly that you think ICANN should continue
to be subject to US laws, at least in the areas of regulation of
non-profits, competition and FoE...... presumable more...... (in any
case an entity is either subject to a jurisdiction, or it is not;
there are no choices available for an entity to be subject to some
laws and not others). <br>
<br>
Have you not said so? Please do let us know if you havent, and even
if you have changed your mind now. <br>
<br>
In the above regard you dont even agree with those who seek, what I
call as, 'phoney internationalisation' (McTim's case) whereby ICANN
internationalisation is sought without being able to suggest any
credible institutional basis for doing it. (You are perhaps too
politically clued-in and can make out that such phony
internationalisation without providing the political- institutional
basis for it is simply not possible.)<br>
<br>
You however do not agree for ICANN to be subject to international
law, or laws of other countries (do you agree to ICANN shifting to
New Delhi?) , and you want it to be subject to US laws. Now that is
literately 'US exceptionalism', isnt it! I cant see how the term can
be applied more accurately than in this case.....<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Riaz K Tayob<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Dominique
Lacroix<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Hmmmm... Google:
"Internet Freedom!"... (from taxes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Frankly I am
not sure what kind of institutionalist Milton is. This is
not the Alexander Hamilton, Daniel Rayomond, Richard Ely, E
Pershine Smith, Frederich List and JK Galbraith, who all had
a keen head for facts and history. <br>
<br>
Britain used free trade ideas as a means to maintain its
dominance over other nations. The workshop of the world that
encouraged everyone to liberalise, that free trade (and then
classical economics) was best. And in the Pax (?) Americana,
neoclassical economics (in infinite disguises) and the
Washington Consensus serves the same function. <br>
<br>
Now I have no truck disagreeing with Mueller on economics -
these approaches differ in method as well as context, so
there is room for disagreement. But on the politics of the
matter (sorry Milton, for some Institutionalists if it is
relevant then it must be included in the "calculation")
Milton, with what I surmise from his Institutionalism - not
having read all his work, is no different from American
Exceptionalists on this list. Of course I am aware that in
the American context(where what passes for progressive is
quit different, this may well be the case. It simply cannot
be generalised.<br>
<br>
And in the "competition" through subsidised efforts Europe
builds capabilities - both the tech no-(harware) and -ology
(its people). One of the key elements of benefiting from a
network is that skills can be diffused. Consumption of
technology rich goods is not the same as producing them.
Actually in a reverse sort of way the status quoists
(exceptionalists, Institutionalists of a special type,
neoliberals, etc) seek to maintain the US dominance by
playing to that nations comparative advantage - also in
institutions like ICANN and the posse that goes with it. <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2012/12/05 10:25 PM, Dominique
Lacroix wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 05/12/12 20:26, Milton L Mueller a
écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"Frankly",
development of the TCP/IP protocols were supported by
military research contracts, which had no intention of
supporting a commercial industry. "The Internet"
spread to the general population and succeeded because
of telecommunications liberalization and a free
market.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt">Dear
Milton, you seem a little dizzy. You skipped merrily the
NSF action in the 1981-1995 years...<br>
And then, also, the CIA action, via the In-Q-Tel venture
capital firm, launched in 1999.<br>
And also the military orders in the advanced IT field.<br>
Perhaps I forget something. I'm also a bit dizzy...<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
government played an important role in facilitating that
process by privatizing control and paving the way for
competition among ISPs. There is no doubt about that. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt">Exact.</span>
<span style="font-size:18.0pt">
And not enough: Google should be prosecuted for
dominance abuse.</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">While
we are being frank, perhaps you can tell me how
successful European efforts to subsidize search engine
technology to compete with Google has been?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt">I assume
you already heard about the networks effect that gives
an advantage to the first big player.<br>
That's exactly why China and other countries protect
their boundaries in order to help their IT industry to
find existence.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:18.0pt">Do you think that Europe
also ought to close their virtual boundaries?<br>
<br>
@+, Dom</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:5.25pt">Please
frankly, Milton, did internet begin in the US by free
market or by the US Gov action?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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