<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Riaz, speaking entirely for myself, nobody pays me a penny (or even an indian paisa to be on the list. The paisa is, at 55 rupees to the dollar and 100 paise to the rupee, a very small sum indeed, and even when I was a toddler in 1980, you could buy like one tiny boiled sweet for 1 paisa, after which it went out of circulation...)<br><br>So no. You don't catch me arguing against legislation or cross border regulation. I see it and its utility all the time. What I am arguing, and what others here are arguing, is that the situation is too complex to have one overarching organization trying to regulate everything in this area. </div><div><br></div><div>Especially not a civil regulator in an environment when a large percentage of what you want to regulate against is criminal in nature. Especially not law enforcement agencies when a lot of this is regulatory in nature. And especially not telecom regulators when data protection, fair trade, justice / law and a variety of other ministries have a role to play in this.</div><div><br>--srs (iPad)</div><div><br>On 30-Nov-2012, at 18:07, Riaz K Tayob <<a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Michael<br>
<br>
The function of arguing against regulation and then making "piece
meal" adjustments as "necessary" (which is a commodious term) is not
as innocuous as it seems. From the 3 prong list earlier in this
thread, there is a clear "position" (as stated) and "interest" (the
reason, purpose, etc) and this is how the "game" is played.<br>
<br>
It is not innocuous because this frames the debate in the "free
markets are better" mold. Now the global financial crisis was
facilitated (if not caused) by this type of thinking - in a sector
most susceptible to oversight... <br>
<br>
It is of course a different matter, when those who argue for "hands
off" and then "hands on" (exceptionally or otherwise), if one seeks
to be in two places at once. But with a battalion of corporate
funded ideogogues backing this view up, I guess it passes some sort
of muster.... Perhaps people are playing the "game", but perhaps
not...<br>
<br>
Riaz<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012/11/28 09:31 PM, michael
gurstein wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:0e6e01cdcd9e$f6ac3460$e4049d20$@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">McTim,
it seems to me that you (and others) argue long and hard
against management/regulation of the Internet except (as in
this case) when you don't.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And
then having accepted the (obvious) need for some sort of
management/regulation of at least certain aspects of the
Internet why you (etc.) should expect that others (the rest
of the world for example) should accept your definition of
what those "exceptions" should be and where they should (or
rather should not) be adjudicated leaves me a bit puzzled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
McTim [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com">mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Suresh Ramasubramanian; Ian Peter; Ginger Paque<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:53 PM, michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No
question, Suresh (and McTim) but you/they can't have
it both ways i.e. vehemently denouncing
regulation/governance ("keep your hand off the
Internet") etc.etc. on the one hand and then
practicing it (if only implicitly) on the other. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm only trying to have it one way. I
feel gov'ts have far too much control over what we say and
do online. I don't want an intergovernmental body setting
global Internet policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
would have thought, if the option is in fact #2 (or
#3) as of course, any rational actor would I believe
have to accept; that if one doesn't like a
particular venue -- what does one suggest as an
appropriate (globally acceptable) alternative
venue(s)--particularly since the current (default)
position seems to be seen as unacceptably
self-serving by so many.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Accepting #2 which as I have said
before is the current status quo does not mean that one
accepts the need for further global Internet Governance
mechanisms.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not find #3 acceptable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I've been singing the same song for
years, what is it that you don't understand about my
position?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it
is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br><span>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</span><br><span> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br><span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>For all other list information and functions, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br><span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>