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<DIV>I think pushing hard for #1 in order to arrive at a tolerable version of #2
might actually result in people adopting #3 because those advocating #1 seem to
be not facing reality.</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gpaque@gmail.com
href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">Ginger Paque</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ian.peter@ianpeter.com
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">Ian Peter</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A> ;
<A title=gurstein@gmail.com href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">michael
gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [governance]
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">:)<BR>I
didn't say I wanted #1... I said we have to push hard for #1...<BR>With the aim
of arriving at a tolerable version of #2...<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR clear=all>Ginger (Virginia) Paque<BR><BR>
<DIV><A href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu"
target=_blank>VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</A><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small">Diplo Foundation<BR>Internet
Governance Capacity Building Programme<BR><A href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig"
target=_blank>www.diplomacy.edu/ig</A><SPAN
style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px; HEIGHT: 16px"></SPAN><SPAN
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></B></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 27 November 2012 18:16, Ian Peter <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target=_blank>ian.peter@ianpeter.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
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<DIV>Disagree with Ginger (that doesnt happen often!)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>no regulation of the internet period means to me</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>* large corporations control what happens via market power</DIV>
<DIV>* paypal can suspend all payments to wikileaks or whoever offends their
sensibilities with no ramifications or checks and balances and political
judgements of corporations can determine access</DIV>
<DIV>* paedophilia, hate mail etc are completely unchecked</DIV>
<DIV>* cybercrime is OK</DIV>
<DIV>* all governments can act unilaterally to block sites according to
whatever power they can exert on either corporations or their local ISP
industry.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frankly, to me this is a horror scenario.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But where I do agree with Ginger is aiming for a tolerable version of
#2.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ian Peter</DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=gpaque@gmail.com href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Ginger Paque</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:06 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A> ; <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target=_blank>michael gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=suresh@hserus.net href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target=_blank>Suresh Ramasubramanian</A> ; <A
title=Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com
href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com" target=_blank>Michael Kende</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [governance] <A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</A></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">I
think we have to push hard for #1, and hope we get a tolerable version of
#2.<BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR clear=all>Ginger (Virginia) Paque<BR><BR>
<DIV><A href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu"
target=_blank>VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</A><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small">Diplo Foundation<BR>Internet
Governance Capacity Building Programme<BR><A
href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig" target=_blank>www.diplomacy.edu/ig</A><SPAN
style="MIN-HEIGHT: 16px; WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px"></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="MIN-HEIGHT: 16px; WIDTH: 16px; PADDING-RIGHT: 16px"></SPAN><SPAN
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></B></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 27 November 2012 17:45, michael gurstein <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target=_blank>gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">But
surely that is the point of civil society, not to be a cheer leader for the
status quo but rather to push governments and others towards their higher
angels.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">M<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:<A href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target=_blank>suresh@hserus.net</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 27,
2012 3:10 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target=_blank>gurstein@gmail.com</A>; 'Michael Kende'; <A
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[governance]<A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Of course you will have to expect
that not all proposals submitted will be driven by pure altruism.
<BR><BR>Narrower interests... Protectionism, politics, whatever else will
inform several proposals. <BR><BR>And you can't rely on the major players
being purely driven by altruism, I'm afraid. <BR><BR>--srs (htc one
x)<BR><BR><BR>----- Reply message -----<BR>From: "michael gurstein" <<A
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target=_blank>gurstein@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: "'Michael Kende'" <<A
href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com"
target=_blank>Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</A>>, <<A
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A>><BR>Subject:
[governance]<A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</A><BR>Date:
Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:26 AM<BR><BR></SPAN><BR>Hi Michael,<BR><BR><BR><BR>We
can do some thought experiments around what option #2 would look like
as<BR>for example, to deal with the issues of global/natonal security on
the<BR>Internet but at the end of the day my guess is that it would look
rather<BR>like a UN agency except one that had been updated from 19th
century modes of<BR>operation (and assumptions about appropriate structures
of governance) to<BR>ones more reflective of 21st century modes/assumptions
and technology.<BR><BR><BR><BR>How we get from here to there is of course, a
challenge but if the major<BR>players are in fact operating in good faith
with an overarching concern for<BR>the health and well being of the Internet
infrastructure as a global public<BR>good rather than pursuing narrow
national or commercial interests then<BR>developing a suitable set of
mechanisms shouldn't be impossible.<BR><BR><BR><BR>And you are right about
"incumbents"--I was of course referring to dominant<BR>Internet players
rather than telco
incumbents.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR><BR><BR>From:
Michael Kende [<A href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com"
target=_blank>mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</A>] <BR>Sent: Tuesday,
November 27, 2012 12:20 PM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A>; michael gurstein; 'Lee W
McKnight'<BR>Subject: RE: [governance]<BR><A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</A><BR>121127<BR><BR><BR><BR>Michael,<BR><BR><BR><BR>What
would #2 look like? Who would be responsible, what jurisdiction
would<BR>they have, what hole would they fill? I think it is
possible to prefer 1<BR>over 3 even if you might prefer #2 to emerge, but
there is no broadly<BR>articulated alternative, so what would you
propose?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Michael<BR><BR><BR>PS since a number of commercial
incumbents are in fact behind one of the<BR>proposals to add Internet issues
to the ITRs, I do not think your last<BR>statement is strictly
accurate.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</A><BR>[<A
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</A>] On Behalf Of
michael gurstein<BR>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:03 PM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A>; 'Lee W
McKnight'<BR>Subject: RE: [governance]<BR><A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</A><BR>121127<BR><BR><BR><BR>I
think it might be useful if the various discussants involved in
the<BR>WCIT/ITU debate were to indicate which of these categories they would
fall<BR>into:<BR><BR>
1. no regulation of the Internet
period<BR><BR>
2. possible regulation/global governance of the Internet in<BR>certain areas
for certain issues but not by the
ITU<BR><BR>
3. regulation of the Internet in certain identified issue<BR>areas by the
ITU<BR><BR><BR><BR>It seems to me that a lot of the loudest voices in the
discussion have come<BR>from those whose broad position is #1 but in a feat
of legerdemaine they<BR>have managed to stampede many of those whose
ultimate position would be #2<BR>(based on a reasoned assessment of the
broad needs of the global community)<BR>to support them by arguing that
there were in fact only two options #1 and<BR>#3.<BR><BR><BR><BR>That option
#1 (i.e. the default option) would seem to strongly favour the<BR>current
dominant geo-political and commercial incumbents is of course
purely<BR>accidental.<BR><BR><BR><BR>M<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</A><BR>[<A
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</A>] On Behalf Of
Lee W McKnight<BR>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:44 AM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</A><BR>Subject:
[governance]<BR><A
href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320"
target=_blank>http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</A><BR>121127<BR><BR><BR><BR>In
case you missed it...today's Reuters article re
WCIT.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_____ <BR><BR>This email is confidential and
is protected by copyright. When addressed to<BR>our clients it is subject to
our terms and conditions of business. <BR><BR>Analysys Mason Limited is
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target=_blank>enquiries@analysysmason.com</A> or visit<BR><A
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