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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No question, Suresh (and McTim) but you/they can't have it both ways i.e. vehemently denouncing regulation/governance ("keep your hand off the Internet") etc.etc. on the one hand and then practicing it (if only implicitly) on the other. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would have thought, if the option is in fact #2 (or #3) as of course, any rational actor would I believe have to accept; that if one doesn't like a particular venue -- what does one suggest as an appropriate (globally acceptable) alternative venue(s)--particularly since the current (default) position seems to be seen as unacceptably self-serving by so many.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [mai(o:suresh@hserus.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Ian Peter; Ginger Paque; <governance@lists.igcaucus.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>As I said the status quo does not equate to laissez faire, and tha national laws, cross border enforcement and various conventions all exist, and some of these mechanisms at least significantly predate the Internet.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yes there is scope for improvement. Only, what set of value add does ITU bring to the table in these areas?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 28-Nov-2012, at 6:37, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://mashable.com/2012/08/03/us-un-internet/">http://mashable.com/2012/08/03/us-un-internet/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>United States to UN: Keep Your Hands Off the Internet</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Alex Fitzpatrick August 3, 2012 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The United States has a clear message for the International Telecommunications Union, the United Nations’ agency in charge of telecommunications: We want Internet governance to stay exactly how it already is.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27, 2012 4:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ian Peter; Ginger Paque; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; <a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I am sorry but nobody even among the fans of the status quo (which does happen to be multistakeholder to a larger extent than the ITU is) will argue for a laissez faire and completely unregulated Internet with possibly utopian lessigisms like 'code is law' substituting for regulation. <br><br>Several national cyber crime laws have broadly similar scope and language on the specific circumstances that warrant cross border and extra territorial application.<br><br>Meanwhile, a country's laws will be entirely applicable to companies doing business in that country. PayPal and wiki leaks. Or earlier yahoo china (actually a chinese company alibaba that is a local business partner of yahoo) turning over a dissidents information to the Chinese police and causing yahoo's ceo to have to apologize to the poor man's wife before a Senate subcommittee. <br><br>Coming specifically to cybersecurity there are international multilateral instruments such as the Budapest convention that provide a framework for cooperation among cyber crime enforcement agencies. <br><br>A significant point to be considered is whether an organization that comprises of civil agencies (telecom regulators) will be effectively able to set and enforce any sort of policy on cybercrime when a significant part of it is worked by law enforcement, besides a plethora of other agencies within the country<br><br>--srs (htc one x)<br><br><br>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>><br>To: "Ginger Paque" <<a href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">gpaque@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: [governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><br>Date: Wed, Nov 28, 2012 5:46 AM<br><br></span><br>Disagree with Ginger (that doesnt happen often!)<br><br>no regulation of the internet period means to me<br><br>* large corporations control what happens via market power<br>* paypal can suspend all payments to wikileaks or whoever offends their sensibilities with no ramifications or checks and balances and political judgements of corporations can determine access<br>* paedophilia, hate mail etc are completely unchecked<br>* cybercrime is OK<br>* all governments can act unilaterally to block sites according to whatever power they can exert on either corporations or their local ISP industry.<br><br>Frankly, to me this is a horror scenario.<br><br>But where I do agree with Ginger is aiming for a tolerable version of #2.<br><br>Ian Peter<br><br>From: Ginger Paque <br>Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:06 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; michael gurstein <br>Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian ; Michael Kende <br>Subject: Re: [governance] <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><br><br>I think we have to push hard for #1, and hope we get a tolerable version of #2.<br><br><br>Ginger (Virginia) Paque<br><br><br><a href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu">VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</a><br>Diplo Foundation<br>Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme<br><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig">www.diplomacy.edu/ig</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>On 27 November 2012 17:45, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> But surely that is the point of civil society, not to be a cheer leader for the status quo but rather to push governments and others towards their higher angels.<br><br><br><br> M<br><br><br><br> From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:10 PM<br> To: <a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>; 'Michael Kende'; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br> Subject: Re: [governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><br><br><br><br> Of course you will have to expect that not all proposals submitted will be driven by pure altruism. <br><br> Narrower interests... Protectionism, politics, whatever else will inform several proposals. <br><br> And you can't rely on the major players being purely driven by altruism, I'm afraid. <br><br> --srs (htc one x)<br><br><br> ----- Reply message -----<br> From: "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br> To: "'Michael Kende'" <<a href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com">Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br> Subject: [governance]<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320121127</a><br> Date: Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:26 AM<br><br><br> Hi Michael,<br><br><br><br> We can do some thought experiments around what option #2 would look like as<br> for example, to deal with the issues of global/natonal security on the<br> Internet but at the end of the day my guess is that it would look rather<br> like a UN agency except one that had been updated from 19th century modes of<br> operation (and assumptions about appropriate structures of governance) to<br> ones more reflective of 21st century modes/assumptions and technology.<br><br><br><br> How we get from here to there is of course, a challenge but if the major<br> players are in fact operating in good faith with an overarching concern for<br> the health and well being of the Internet infrastructure as a global public<br> good rather than pursuing narrow national or commercial interests then<br> developing a suitable set of mechanisms shouldn't be impossible.<br><br><br><br> And you are right about "incumbents"--I was of course referring to dominant<br> Internet players rather than telco incumbents.<br><br><br><br> Best,<br><br><br><br> Mike<br><br><br><br> From: Michael Kende [<a href="mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com">mailto:Michael.Kende@analysysmason.com</a>] <br> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:20 PM<br> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein; 'Lee W McKnight'<br> Subject: RE: [governance]<br> <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br> 121127<br><br><br><br> Michael,<br><br><br><br> What would #2 look like? Who would be responsible, what jurisdiction would<br> they have, what hole would they fill? I think it is possible to prefer 1<br> over 3 even if you might prefer #2 to emerge, but there is no broadly<br> articulated alternative, so what would you propose?<br><br><br><br> Michael<br><br><br> PS since a number of commercial incumbents are in fact behind one of the<br> proposals to add Internet issues to the ITRs, I do not think your last<br> statement is strictly accurate.<br><br><br><br><br><br> From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of michael gurstein<br> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:03 PM<br> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Lee W McKnight'<br> Subject: RE: [governance]<br> <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br> 121127<br><br><br><br> I think it might be useful if the various discussants involved in the<br> WCIT/ITU debate were to indicate which of these categories they would fall<br> into:<br><br> 1. no regulation of the Internet period<br><br> 2. possible regulation/global governance of the Internet in<br> certain areas for certain issues but not by the ITU<br><br> 3. regulation of the Internet in certain identified issue<br> areas by the ITU<br><br><br><br> It seems to me that a lot of the loudest voices in the discussion have come<br> from those whose broad position is #1 but in a feat of legerdemaine they<br> have managed to stampede many of those whose ultimate position would be #2<br> (based on a reasoned assessment of the broad needs of the global community)<br> to support them by arguing that there were in fact only two options #1 and<br> #3.<br><br><br><br> That option #1 (i.e. the default option) would seem to strongly favour the<br> current dominant geo-political and commercial incumbents is of course purely<br> accidental.<br><br><br><br> M<br><br><br><br><br><br> From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of Lee W McKnight<br> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:44 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br> Subject: [governance]<br> <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/net-us-un-internet-idUSBRE8AQ06320</a><br> 121127<br><br><br><br> In case you missed it...today's Reuters article re WCIT.<br><br><br><br><br> _____ <br><br> This email is confidential and is protected by copyright. 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