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Haha, sometimes irony is just lost on this list... Thanks Gurstein!<br>
Irony does not translate well on the internet indeed...<br>
It does however flush out some rather interesting verbiage from our
rather eloquent interlocutors : )<br>
People in glass houses should not get undressed in the dark and all
that...<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012/11/21 06:47 PM, michael
gurstein wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:051901cdc807$dae2b7f0$90a827d0$@gmail.com"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">FWIW,
it is probably good to point out that Riaz` original
comments on Parminder`s post were meant ironically (and
supportively…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Which
suggests Internet Communicativity Rule #2* <i>Irony doesn`t
translate well on the (multilingual/multicultural)
Internet…<o:p></o:p></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">*Internet
Communicativity Rule #1, <i>there are no Communicativity
Rules on the Internet</i>.<i>Whatever you say in whatever
language will always be misinterpreted by someone
somewhere. </i>:) (including this message, see rule #2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sama.digitalpolicy@gmail.com">sama.digitalpolicy@gmail.com</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:sama.digitalpolicy@gmail.com">mailto:sama.digitalpolicy@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrea
Glorioso<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT
website<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do not often
intervene in this mailing list, although I follow it with
great attention.<br>
<br>
But I must say that independently from any substantive opinion
one might have on Google, the ITU, WCIT or anything else, I
find the tone of recent emails concerning the mental state
and/or other personal characteristics of people extremely
distasteful and very unhelpful to foster dialogue, which I
thought was one of the main objectives of the the
multi-stakeholder model.<br>
<br>
Civil society's main strength lies in its diversity. In my
view such diversity should be nurtured. I never believed in
fake notions of "consensus", nor am I shy to express my or the
European Commission's disagreement when need be; but one can
do so, even quite strongly, focusing on the substance rather
than other elements.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Andrea<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:25 PM,
Sivasubramanian M <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p>On Nov 21, 2012 2:10 PM, "Suresh Ramasubramanian" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I fail to see how google selling email, collaboration
etc services to<br>
> telcos has anything to do with the free and open
internet here.<br>
><br>
> Remember something - even if google sells something
to the telcos, the<br>
> users are the telco's users, and the law that's
followed will be the law of<br>
> whichever country those users are in, and the telco
does business in.<br>
><br>
> And as for asking whether parminder is crazy .. well,
I will confess that I<br>
> don't quite have to ask myself that question at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>That is too emphatic an assertion. I would not agree with
the idea that Parminder is crazy. Parminder is sane,
intelligent, calculative and his responses to any thing said
or done for the good of the Internet is strategically
constructed, sometimes incoherently, this again with a
calculated purpose.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It requires a person of Parminder's distorted intelligence
to come with a response to something so good as Google's
campaign to preserve the free and open Internet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>His strategy: "Don't find fault with the ideas expressed in
the Google campaign (because you can't). Find fault with
Google (it is easier, and definitely distracts attention
away from the arguments presented to the arguer, Google)".
This is 'argumentum ad hominem' <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Parminder is quite intelligent, but his liver, brain and
heart are contaminated by a misplaced passion for the ITU.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:#888888">Sivasubramanian M.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p>><br>
> Riaz K Tayob [21/11/12 09:54 +0200]:<br>
><br>
>> Are you crazy Parminder?<br>
>><br>
>> Rule no. 1 The "free market" is always right<br>
>><br>
>> Rule no. 2 If not, consult rule number 1.<br>
>><br>
>> Rule no. 3 If you feel let down by rule no. 1
consult rule no. 2<br>
>><br>
>> Apologies if this seems self-referential... but
that is how it IS<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 2012/11/21 09:49 AM, parminder wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> From Google's sign-on campaign<br>
>>><br>
>>> “A free and open world depends
on a free and open<br>
>>> Internet. Governments alone,
working behind closed doors,<br>
>>> should not direct its future.
The billions of people<br>
>>> around the globe who use the
Internet should have a voice.”<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/takeaction/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=112012freeandopen#make-your-voice-heard"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/takeaction/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=112012freeandopen#make-your-voice-heard</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear Google; Yes, the world indeed needs an
open Internet, for which reason it is rather awful to
note that you, meaning, Google;<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1) Sold the entire net neutrality campaign
down the drain in the US, by first assuming its
leadership and then entering into a self-serving
agreement with Verizon, whereby the main means of
accessing the Internet in the future - mobiles - are
exempted from net neutrality provisions.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2) Have recently entered into exclusive
arrangements with telecos to provide Gmail, Google + and
Google Search for free in some developing countries
(Philippines) , and as a special low cost package
exclusively of a few Internet services (and not the
full, public Internet) in others (India), which makes a
mockery of an open and net neutral Internet.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3) Tweak your search results, which is
increasingly the main way of accessing locations on the
Internet, in non-transparent ways, with increasing
evidence that this is done in a manner that merely
serves your own commercial interests and goes against
consumer/ public interest, and for which reasons Google
is currently subject to regulatory investigations in the
US and EU.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ( There are hundreds of other outrages, big
and small, including the fact that today I suddenly see
my default browser getting set for "Chrome' when I
prefer and have always used Mozilla Firefox and never
asked for the change of default.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> I cannot see anything other than effective
regulation of the Internet to be able to check such
excesses by Internet companies that are deeply
compromising the openness of the Internet (sticking here
to only to the subject of openness of the Internet, used
in above appeal by Google).<br>
>>><br>
>>> So, lets be honest, it is not about people
versus ITU, not even, Google versus ITU, or even Google
versus content regulation; it is Google versus any
regulation of the Internet space so that Google, and
similarly positioned dominant players, can have a free
run over the economic, social and political resources of
the world.<br>
>>><br>
>>> It is very important to wage the needed
struggles to keep Internet's content free from undue
statist controls. But one needs to be careful about whom
one chooses as partners, nay, leaders of the campaign.
Remember, the lessons from the net neutrality campaign
in the US which was sold cheap by those who assumed its
leadership. Also, have no doubt whatsoever that ACTAs
and PIPAs will come back in new forms, accommodating the
interests of the big Internet companies that led the
opposition in the first round. (Anyone wanting to take a
bet on this! :) ) And. when the second round happens,
since 'our leaders' would have crossed over, there
wouldnt be much fight left to give.<br>
>>><br>
>>> For sure, make opportunistic, tactical,
alliances, but civil society needs to be careful not to
abandon leadership of public interest causes to players
who cannot but become turncoat and, well, betray, -
sooner or later getting into bed with whoever is
economically and politically powerful around to help
their business prosper. Such is the structural logic of
big business. Let them stick to what they do best -
organise productive forces of the world. Leave public
interest causes to public interest players - civil
society and governments. However, if the sentiment is
simply overflowing, maybe just donate some money to such
causes, in an arms- lenght /hands-off approach vis a vis
managing the precise activities involved. I simply dont
fancy corporate-led 'public interest' campaigns.<br>
>>><br>
>>> One was stuck by the number of Google
organised panels at the Baku IGF, where they openly took
part and gave their policy pitch. As a participant from
Pakistan said at a workshop ' I find a Google
representative at every panel that I am at'. Such brash
presence at policy forums and taking strong policy
positions by corporates is a relatively new game, and to
my mind not a welcome thing for our democracies. I keep
hoping that civil society would give this phenomenon a
deeper thought and analysis, rather than just riding the
bandwagon.<br>
>>><br>
>>> parminder<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wednesday 21 November 2012 04:47 AM,
Fouad Bajwa wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Just saw Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT
website<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/en/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/en/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/fr/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/fr/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/es/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/es/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/ar/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/ar/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/zh-CN/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/zh-CN/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/pt-BR/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/pt-BR/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/intl/ru/takeaction/"
target="_blank">https://www.google.com/intl/ru/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> (thanks to a colleague for sharing!)<br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
><br>
>>
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<br>
-- <br>
<br>
--<br>
I speak only for myself. Sometimes I do not even agree with
myself. Keep it in mind.<br>
Twitter: @andreaglorioso<br>
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