<p></p>
<p>On Nov 21, 2012 10:53 PM, "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Siva/ Suresh,<br>
><br>
> The attack on Parminder was uncalled for distasteful and in violation of the spirit of multi-stakeholderism. This is a warning to you and to others on the list who may think of venturing into personal attacks. <br>
><br>
> We have to learn to engage in debate without resorting to personal attacks. <br>
><br>
> Sala Tamanikaiwaimaro<br>
><br>
> (Co-Coordinator of the IGC)</p>
<p>><br>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Andrea Glorioso,<br>
>><br>
>> I am sorry if I have contributed to your impression of a personal attack on this participant.<br>
>><br>
>> I was rather trying to say that this participant was responding to Google's campaign with an attack on Google instead of on the argument.<br>
>><br>
>> I was actually saying that this participant is NOT 'crazy', a term used by other participants, perhaps informally, lightly.<br>
>><br>
>> Whatever I said on the participant's calculated purpose might not please be seen as a personal attack. However I wish I hadn't used the phrase 'distorted intelligence', but even this was said in light vain, a Smiley was missing.<br>
>><br>
>> I often strongly disagree with this participant, but my responses have not been intended to be attack on the person, certainly not in a distasteful manner.<br>
>><br>
>> However I will be careful to double check on the tone of on my exchanges with this participant in particular, as what is said here rather lightly does not seem to appear light in print.<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you.<br>
>> Sivasubramanian M<br></p>
<p>(In addition to what I have said above as response to Andrea Gloriosa, I must add the following in response to you on the specific passage that you have quoted in a previous message, because you reopened the issue AFTER my response as above)</p>
<p>Before anything I must add that Parminder is some one with views that I strongly oppose, he is an opponent, but not an enemy that I would be disrespectful against. I have had similar, strong exchanges with Parminder on this list, but face to face, whatever minimal interaction I have had with Parminder or Guru, have always been polite. This makes me assume that no offences taken, so far.</p>
<p>This is what you quoted from what I wrote:</p>
<p>"Parminder is quite intelligent, but his liver, brain and heart are contaminated by a misplaced passion for the ITU." </p>
<p>A person well trained in diplomatic parlance would have said "Parminder's views are aligned to that of the ITU". That would have been an 'observation' and wouldn't have been considered a personal attack.</p>
<p>I don't have a background in Government or Diplomacy, my undergraduate education was in Literature, so my expressions stem from this background. </p>
<p>'liver, brain and heart' are references drawn from the poetic expressions of a romantic Duke from The Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare. Liver, brain and heart were considered the seat of emotions in the Elizabethan age. What I conveyed from the expression 'his liver, brain and heart are contaminated by a misplaced passion for the ITU' was simply the idea that Parminder's views are immensely aligned to that of the ITU. Rephrased like this, it could not possibly be misconstrued as a personal attack.</p>
<p>Someone else from Fiji - this one, a friend - once cautioned me about the intended meaning being lost in translation and in cross-cultural exchanges, in most communication in the Governance list. I must follow his advice :-) </p>
<p>This explanation should be sufficient if it your intervention was due to any misunderstanding, but would not suffice if what was offensive was the reference to one or more views being aligned to the ITU agenda :-) </p>
<p>Sivasubramanian M</p>
<p>>><br>
>> On Nov 21, 2012 8:37 PM, "Andrea Glorioso" <<a href="mailto:andrea@digitalpolicy.it">andrea@digitalpolicy.it</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I do not often intervene in this mailing list, although I follow it with great attention.<br>
>>><br>
>>> But I must say that independently from any substantive opinion one might have on Google, the ITU, WCIT or anything else, I find the tone of recent emails concerning the mental state and/or other personal characteristics of people extremely distasteful and very unhelpful to foster dialogue, which I thought was one of the main objectives of the the multi-stakeholder model.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Civil society's main strength lies in its diversity. In my view such diversity should be nurtured. I never believed in fake notions of "consensus", nor am I shy to express my or the European Commission's disagreement when need be; but one can do so, even quite strongly, focusing on the substance rather than other elements.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Best,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Andrea<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Nov 21, 2012 2:10 PM, "Suresh Ramasubramanian" <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > I fail to see how google selling email, collaboration etc services to<br>
>>>> > telcos has anything to do with the free and open internet here.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > Remember something - even if google sells something to the telcos, the<br>
>>>> > users are the telco's users, and the law that's followed will be the law of<br>
>>>> > whichever country those users are in, and the telco does business in.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > And as for asking whether parminder is crazy .. well, I will confess that I<br>
>>>> > don't quite have to ask myself that question at all.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> That is too emphatic an assertion. I would not agree with the idea that Parminder is crazy. Parminder is sane, intelligent, calculative and his responses to any thing said or done for the good of the Internet is strategically constructed, sometimes incoherently, this again with a calculated purpose.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> It requires a person of Parminder's distorted intelligence to come with a response to something so good as Google's campaign to preserve the free and open Internet.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> His strategy: "Don't find fault with the ideas expressed in the Google campaign (because you can't). Find fault with Google (it is easier, and definitely distracts attention away from the arguments presented to the arguer, Google)". This is 'argumentum ad hominem'<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Parminder is quite intelligent, but his liver, brain and heart are contaminated by a misplaced passion for the ITU.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Sivasubramanian M.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > Riaz K Tayob [21/11/12 09:54 +0200]:<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> >> Are you crazy Parminder?<br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >> Rule no. 1 The "free market" is always right<br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >> Rule no. 2 If not, consult rule number 1.<br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >> Rule no. 3 If you feel let down by rule no. 1 consult rule no. 2<br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >> Apologies if this seems self-referential... but that is how it IS<br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> >> On 2012/11/21 09:49 AM, parminder wrote:<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> From Google's sign-on campaign<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> “A free and open world depends on a free and open<br>
>>>> >>> Internet. Governments alone, working behind closed doors,<br>
>>>> >>> should not direct its future. The billions of people<br>
>>>> >>> around the globe who use the Internet should have a voice.”<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> <a href="https://www.google.com/takeaction/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=112012freeandopen#make-your-voice-heard">https://www.google.com/takeaction/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=112012freeandopen#make-your-voice-heard</a><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> Dear Google; Yes, the world indeed needs an open Internet, for which reason it is rather awful to note that you, meaning, Google;<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> 1) Sold the entire net neutrality campaign down the drain in the US, by first assuming its leadership and then entering into a self-serving agreement with Verizon, whereby the main means of accessing the Internet in the future - mobiles - are exempted from net neutrality provisions.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> 2) Have recently entered into exclusive arrangements with telecos to provide Gmail, Google + and Google Search for free in some developing countries (Philippines) , and as a special low cost package exclusively of a few Internet services (and not the full, public Internet) in others (India), which makes a mockery of an open and net neutral Internet.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> 3) Tweak your search results, which is increasingly the main way of accessing locations on the Internet, in non-transparent ways, with increasing evidence that this is done in a manner that merely serves your own commercial interests and goes against consumer/ public interest, and for which reasons Google is currently subject to regulatory investigations in the US and EU.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> ( There are hundreds of other outrages, big and small, including the fact that today I suddenly see my default browser getting set for "Chrome' when I prefer and have always used Mozilla Firefox and never asked for the change of default.)<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> I cannot see anything other than effective regulation of the Internet to be able to check such excesses by Internet companies that are deeply compromising the openness of the Internet (sticking here to only to the subject of openness of the Internet, used in above appeal by Google).<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> So, lets be honest, it is not about people versus ITU, not even, Google versus ITU, or even Google versus content regulation; it is Google versus any regulation of the Internet space so that Google, and similarly positioned dominant players, can have a free run over the economic, social and political resources of the world.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> It is very important to wage the needed struggles to keep Internet's content free from undue statist controls. But one needs to be careful about whom one chooses as partners, nay, leaders of the campaign. Remember, the lessons from the net neutrality campaign in the US which was sold cheap by those who assumed its leadership. Also, have no doubt whatsoever that ACTAs and PIPAs will come back in new forms, accommodating the interests of the big Internet companies that led the opposition in the first round. (Anyone wanting to take a bet on this! :) ) And. when the second round happens, since 'our leaders' would have crossed over, there wouldnt be much fight left to give.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> For sure, make opportunistic, tactical, alliances, but civil society needs to be careful not to abandon leadership of public interest causes to players who cannot but become turncoat and, well, betray, - sooner or later getting into bed with whoever is economically and politically powerful around to help their business prosper. Such is the structural logic of big business. Let them stick to what they do best - organise productive forces of the world. Leave public interest causes to public interest players - civil society and governments. However, if the sentiment is simply overflowing, maybe just donate some money to such causes, in an arms- lenght /hands-off approach vis a vis managing the precise activities involved. I simply dont fancy corporate-led 'public interest' campaigns.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> One was stuck by the number of Google organised panels at the Baku IGF, where they openly took part and gave their policy pitch. As a participant from Pakistan said at a workshop ' I find a Google representative at every panel that I am at'. Such brash presence at policy forums and taking strong policy positions by corporates is a relatively new game, and to my mind not a welcome thing for our democracies. I keep hoping that civil society would give this phenomenon a deeper thought and analysis, rather than just riding the bandwagon.<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> parminder<br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >>> On Wednesday 21 November 2012 04:47 AM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:<br>
>>>> >>>><br>
>>>> >>>> Just saw Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website<br>
>>>> >>>><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/en/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/en/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/fr/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/fr/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/es/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/es/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/ar/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/ar/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/zh-CN/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/zh-CN/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/pt-BR/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/pt-BR/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>> <a href="https://www.google.com/intl/ru/takeaction/">https://www.google.com/intl/ru/takeaction/</a><br>
>>>> >>>><br>
>>>> >>>> (thanks to a colleague for sharing!)<br>
>>>> >>>><br>
>>>> >>><br>
>>>> >><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> >> ____________________________________________________________<br>
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>>>> ><br>
>>>> ><br>
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>>>><br>
>>>><br>
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>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> -- <br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> I speak only for myself. Sometimes I do not even agree with myself. Keep it in mind.<br>
>>> Twitter: @andreaglorioso<br>
>>> Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrea.glorioso">https://www.facebook.com/andrea.glorioso</a><br>
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>>><br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
> -- <br>
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala<br>
> P.O. Box 17862<br>
> Suva<br>
> Fiji<br>
><br>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT<br>
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro<br>
> Tel: <a href="tel:%2B679%203544828">+679 3544828</a><br>
> Fiji Cell: <a href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851">+679 998 2851</a><br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ____________________________________________________________<br>
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></p>
<p>L</p>