<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Sala<br>
<br>
For the record:<br>
<br>
1. I have no objection to Suresh's post (that is without any
endorsement of Nazi's or Mein Kampf that brought the world, jews,
gays and other minorities untold suffering; just as I do not endorse
all the views of the articles I post) as an individual. I would
hasten to add that from a third world perspective (and avoiding
moral relativism) while the Nazi's are unquotable a whole lot of
other colonial genocidiers (like John Steuart Mill etc) are held to
be politely quotable... a double standard that removes the
functionality of the ideas, throwing out the baby with the
bathwater... (and lest I be misconstrued as it is so easy when the
word Nazi is mentioned - I unequivocally denounce the actions of the
Nazi's and the suffering imposed on particularly the Jews in the
industrial scale slaughter; and that we all need to guard against
especially as the crisis brings the rising right wing tendency to
full fore in Europe).<br>
<br>
2. Issues related to the tenor and content of the list are a
collective, and ought to take individual views into account, and
hence in moderator/s hands, so I am happy to defer should the
moderator/collective make such a decision.<br>
<br>
Riaz (personal)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012/11/22 06:02 PM, Salanieta T.
Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJwbTiCtVHeFdMWyTo1_R-H-FcjdihQQn9xxpPA6jY=vynPptw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Dear Suresh,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please refrain from using words like "Nazi" on this list.
Dialogue on any of the Internet Governance issues and topics.
This discussion has escalated off the relevant issues. Any more
warnings and I will remove you from the list. Let this serve as
a reminder to all to keep the discussions on Internet Governance
issues.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div>
<div><i><b>(IGC Co-Coordinator)</b></i><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Suresh
Ramasubramanian <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Not really. I am not calling anybody at all a nazi
here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did you read that essay, Michael?<br>
<br>
--srs (iPad)</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On 22-Nov-2012, at 21:06, "michael gurstein" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ah,
we`ve done a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law"
target="_blank">Godwin</a>… I knew it was
coming…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh
Ramasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, 2012
7:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Riaz K Tayob<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance]
Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Riaz, I like to think of
myself as somewhere between the two camps
and not attached to either. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I see (and have earlier
commented on) multiple flaws in ICANN's
processes and governance, and I don't have
blind faith in either of those.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You don't see me reacting
as viscerally to, say, Gurstein (or even to
Karl Auerbach, with whom I've had my share
of differences of opinion before on
politechbot and elsewhere)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is, however, a
rather clear line between dialectics and
propaganda. And I am afraid I tend to react
very negatively when I see propaganda.
Especially where it is of the sort that
seeks to demonise the opposition just to
score a point. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Without in any way
comparing anybody on or off this list to a
nazi, I would still like to leave this
chapter from Mein Kampf here as probably the
most succinct essay on the effective use of
propaganda that I have ever read. And when
I see these principles freely applied
anywhere (in industry lobbying, in civil
society 'advocacy (!)' ..) it leaves an
extremely bad taste in my mouth.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html"
target="_blank">http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--srs (iPad)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 22-Nov-2012, at 20:11, Riaz K Tayob <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com"
target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">having been
the "victim" of too robust engagement on
this list, I feel incumbent to respond...<br>
<br>
There is a difference between posting a
third party article (that might be
provocative etc) and entering the fray.
This is a crucial difference that needs to
be borne in mind.<br>
<br>
I will say it straight out (so there is no
doubt), this list has a predilection for
ICANN (on CIR) and market/corporate views
as opposed to public interest views (of
course any minority like to feel it is
special ;) and I am so glad that more even
handedness is being shown by moderators
like Sala...<br>
<br>
I am not sure even Hegel would have agreed
that civil society was civil (it was
aspirational), but he encouraged the
dialectical (i.e. reasoned argument) as
the best way forward in civil society...
So for me the only worry is whether the
arguments made can be sustained by
reason... on this list, in times not so
long ago, reason was typically a hostage
in the arguments against Auerbach,
Parminder, Gurstein type arguments...<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2012/11/22 02:54
AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Right.
Truthout screeds, random allegations,
accusations about "arrogance", half
truth laden polemic .. to pick a few.<br>
<br>
And those are not deemed to be
personal attacks because they are
targeted at a corporation rather than
individual?<br>
<br>
Fun days. There was a time when civil
society discourse was actually civil.
But any incivility I have committed is
in response to behavior that does not
and should not characterize civil
society.<br>
<br>
So sala, thank you for your warning. <br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Guru </span><span
style="font-family:"Mangal","serif"">गुरु</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Guru@ITforChange.net"
target="_blank"><Guru@ITforChange.net></a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank"><governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a><br>
Subject: [governance] Google's Fight
the ITU/WCIT website<br>
Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 10:51 PM<br>
<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://truth-out.org/news/item/12676-how-google-is-helping-the-gas-lobby-support-fracking"
target="_blank">http://truth-out.org/news/item/12676-how-google-is-helping-the-gas-lobby-support-fracking</a><br>
<br>
<br>
On Wednesday 21 November 2012 06:25 PM,
Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:<br>
> Hi all,<br>
><br>
> Google is now champion for
arrogance and disinformation. They
believe <br>
> they reached a State statute
whereby they can dictate other States <br>
> what they have to do. Actually this
not so different from the US gov <br>
> attitude.<br>
><br>
> Google's dominance of the
advertising market is in no way a
guarantee <br>
> of quality and neutrality. They
just leverage their dominance for <br>
> promoting their own business. And
they conflate their particular <br>
> interests with grand ideologies as
free information for all.<br>
><br>
> Let's assume that drugs are free
for all. Then the web would be <br>
> swamped with ads for drugs,
seminars praising benefits of using
drugs, <br>
> training sessions for acquiring
drug consumption art, testimonies from <br>
> drug users telling how it changed
their life for the good, mass <br>
> campaign vilifying institutions or
governments requesting drug <br>
> control, and so on. Just because
the drug maffia has enough resources <br>
> for controlling a free market. And
the saying is "the market is right".<br>
><br>
> As expected, the simple association
of information and drug will <br>
> immediately raise fury. It's just
taboo. Like associating Google <br>
> interests with freedom of
information.<br>
><br>
> There was a time when the US gov
would resist and break excessive and <br>
> abusive dominance in certain market
segments, like oil, bank, telecom. <br>
> Now it's the opposite. Excessive
market dominance is good for US world <br>
> dominance, as long as the dominant
firms are based in the US. Then <br>
> where are check and balance
mechanisms ?<br>
><br>
> Let's not be fooled by Google
stylish propaganda. The real issues in <br>
> WCIT 2012 have nothing to do with
internet censorship, and Google <br>
> knows it too well. The issues are
finding a more equitable balance <br>
> between stakeholders interests and
profits.<br>
><br>
> Parminder's observations are
entirely relevant. The most dangerous <br>
> threats to information freedom are
US lead secretly negotiated <br>
> treaties by multi-national lobbies,
SOPA, ACTA, etc. More are coming, <br>
> still secret, basically a rehash of
those that failed, TPP, CleanIT, <br>
> .. watch out.<br>
><br>
> Cheers, Louis<br>
> - - -<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:24 AM,
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>
<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank"><mailto:parminder@itforchange.net></a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wednesday 21 November 2012
01:19 PM, parminder wrote:<br>
>> snip<br>
><br>
>> Dear Google; Yes, the world
indeed needs an open Internet, for<br>
>> which reason it is rather
awful to note that you, meaning, Google;<br>
>><br>
>> 1) Sold the entire net
neutrality campaign down the drain in
the<br>
>> US, by first assuming its
leadership and then entering into a<br>
>> self-serving agreement with
Verizon, whereby the main means of<br>
>> accessing the Internet in
the future - mobiles - are exempted<br>
>> from net neutrality
provisions.<br>
>><br>
>> 2) Have recently entered
into exclusive arrangements with telecos<br>
>> to provide Gmail, Google +
and Google Search for free in some<br>
>> developing countries
(Philippines) , and as a special low
cost<br>
>> package exclusively of a
few Internet services (and not the full,<br>
>> public Internet) in others
(India), which makes a mockery of an<br>
>> open and net neutral
Internet.<br>
><br>
> BTW, is it a mere coincidence
these new mobile based<br>
> non-net-neutral services seem
to have something to do with the<br>
> betraying compromise that
Google made that is mentioned in point 1<br>
> above?<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> 3) Tweak your search
results, which is increasingly the main
way<br>
>> of accessing locations on
the Internet, in non-transparent ways,<br>
>> with increasing evidence
that this is done in a manner that<br>
>> merely serves your own
commercial interests and goes against<br>
>> consumer/ public interest,
and for which reasons Google is<br>
>> currently subject to
regulatory investigations in the US and
EU.<br>
>><br>
>> ( There are hundreds of
other outrages, big and small, including<br>
>> the fact that today I
suddenly see my default browser getting<br>
>> set for "Chrome' when I
prefer and have always used Mozilla<br>
>> Firefox and never asked for
the change of default.)<br>
>><br>
>> I cannot see anything other
than effective regulation of the<br>
>> Internet to be able to
check such excesses by Internet
companies<br>
>> that are deeply
compromising the openness of the
Internet<br>
>> (sticking here to only to
the subject of openness of the<br>
>> Internet, used in above
appeal by Google).<br>
>><br>
>> So, lets be honest, it is
not about people versus ITU, not even,<br>
>> Google versus ITU, or even
Google versus content regulation; it<br>
>> is Google versus any
regulation of the Internet space so that<br>
>> Google, and similarly
positioned dominant players, can have a<br>
>> free run over the economic,
social and political resources of the<br>
>> world.<br>
>><br>
>> It is very important to
wage the needed struggles to keep<br>
>> In </p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber
on the list:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and
functions, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"
target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's
charter, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"
target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>____________________________________________________________</span><br>
<span>You received this message as a subscriber on
the list:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a></span><br>
<span>To be removed from the list, visit:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For all other list information and
functions, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"
target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a></span><br>
<span>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's
charter, see:</span><br>
<span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Translate this email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"
target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"
target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"
target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"
target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div>
<div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
<div>Suva</div>
<div>Fiji</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro">Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a></div>
<div>Tel: +679 3544828</div>
<div>Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span
style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>