<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I have been asked to post the following on behalf of Michael Kende, who seems to have some technical problems sending messages to the vlist:</p>
<p>"I just opened my email, and this is the first email that I read in this string and I have to say that when you read this last one first, it is not only fairly shocking, but almost impossible to imagine how we got here and why this needed to be said (frankly these days I tend to take it for granted that people have a distaste for all things Nazi, and as the son of a holocaust survivor, I know enough about the history). Sadly, reading the string from the bottom to the top is not much more illuminating as to how we got here. From my point of view, being relatively new to this list, a small group have begun to focus too much on why someone is saying something, rather than simply addressing what they are saying, and this quickly leads to ad hominem attacks and these types of diversions. Speaking at least for myself, and not knowing any of the participants except through this list, this is not very illuminating for those of us who are here to learn about Internet governance rather than why a particular participant is taking a particular position."</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 22, 2012 5:52 PM, "Suresh Ramasubramanian" <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">suresh@hserus.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
For the record - I share the distaste Riaz expresses for hitler, the nazi<br>
party and its policies.<br>
<br>
As a student of history and political science, I still find the conditions<br>
behind their rise to power - widespread dissatisfaction and public anger,<br>
petty demagoguery, easy identification of hate groups rather than an<br>
attempt to reach out and be inclusive .. fascinating. Especially given that<br>
these were all the ingredients for their total destruction after world war<br>
II<br>
<br>
Riaz K Tayob [22/11/12 18:43 +0200]:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Sala<br>
<br>
For the record:<br>
<br>
1. I have no objection to Suresh's post (that is without any endorsement of Nazi's or Mein Kampf that brought the world, jews, gays and other minorities untold suffering; just as I do not endorse all the views of the articles I post) as an individual. I would hasten to add that from a third world perspective (and avoiding moral relativism) while the Nazi's are unquotable a whole lot of other colonial genocidiers (like John Steuart Mill etc) are held to be politely quotable... a double standard that removes the functionality of the ideas, throwing out the baby with the bathwater... (and lest I be misconstrued as it is so easy when the word Nazi is mentioned - I unequivocally denounce the actions of the Nazi's and the suffering imposed on particularly the Jews in the industrial scale slaughter; and that we all need to guard against especially as the crisis brings the rising right wing tendency to full fore in Europe).<br>
<br>
2. Issues related to the tenor and content of the list are a collective, and ought to take individual views into account, and hence in moderator/s hands, so I am happy to defer should the moderator/collective make such a decision.<br>
<br>
Riaz (personal)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012/11/22 06:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dear Suresh,<br>
<br>
Please refrain from using words like "Nazi" on this list. Dialogue on any of the Internet Governance issues and topics. This discussion has escalated off the relevant issues. Any more warnings and I will remove you from the list. Let this serve as a reminder to all to keep the discussions on Internet Governance issues.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala<br>
/*(IGC Co-Coordinator)*/<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Not really. I am not calling anybody at all a nazi here.<br>
<br>
Did you read that essay, Michael?<br>
<br>
--srs (iPad)<br>
<br>
On 22-Nov-2012, at 21:06, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Ah, we`ve done a Godwin<br>
<<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>Godwin%27s_law</a>>… I knew it was coming…<br>
<br>
M<br>
<br>
*From:*<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@<u></u>lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@<u></u>lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@<u></u>lists.igcaucus.org</a>] *On Behalf Of<br>
*Suresh Ramasubramanian<br>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:01 AM<br>
*To:* <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.<u></u>igcaucus.org</a>>; Riaz K Tayob<br>
*Cc:* <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.<u></u>igcaucus.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website<br>
<br>
Riaz, I like to think of myself as somewhere between the two<br>
camps and not attached to either.<br>
<br>
I see (and have earlier commented on) multiple flaws in ICANN's<br>
processes and governance, and I don't have blind faith in either<br>
of those.<br>
<br>
You don't see me reacting as viscerally to, say, Gurstein (or<br>
even to Karl Auerbach, with whom I've had my share of differences<br>
of opinion before on politechbot and elsewhere)<br>
<br>
There is, however, a rather clear line between dialectics and<br>
propaganda. And I am afraid I tend to react very negatively when<br>
I see propaganda. Especially where it is of the sort that seeks<br>
to demonise the opposition just to score a point.<br>
<br>
Without in any way comparing anybody on or off this list to a<br>
nazi, I would still like to leave this chapter from Mein Kampf<br>
here as probably the most succinct essay on the effective use of<br>
propaganda that I have ever read. And when I see these<br>
principles freely applied anywhere (in industry lobbying, in<br>
civil society 'advocacy (!)' ..) it leaves an extremely bad taste<br>
in my mouth.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html" target="_blank">http://www.hitler.org/<u></u>writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.<u></u>html</a><br>
<br>
--srs (iPad)<br>
<br>
<br>
On 22-Nov-2012, at 20:11, Riaz K Tayob <<a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
having been the "victim" of too robust engagement on this<br>
list, I feel incumbent to respond...<br>
<br>
There is a difference between posting a third party article<br>
(that might be provocative etc) and entering the fray. This<br>
is a crucial difference that needs to be borne in mind.<br>
<br>
I will say it straight out (so there is no doubt), this list<br>
has a predilection for ICANN (on CIR) and market/corporate<br>
views as opposed to public interest views (of course any<br>
minority like to feel it is special ;) and I am so glad that<br>
more even handedness is being shown by moderators like Sala...<br>
<br>
I am not sure even Hegel would have agreed that civil society<br>
was civil (it was aspirational), but he encouraged the<br>
dialectical (i.e. reasoned argument) as the best way forward<br>
in civil society... So for me the only worry is whether the<br>
arguments made can be sustained by reason... on this list, in<br>
times not so long ago, reason was typically a hostage in the<br>
arguments against Auerbach, Parminder, Gurstein type arguments...<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012/11/22 02:54 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:<br>
<br>
Right. Truthout screeds, random allegations, accusations<br>
about "arrogance", half truth laden polemic .. to pick a few.<br>
<br>
And those are not deemed to be personal attacks because<br>
they are targeted at a corporation rather than individual?<br>
<br>
Fun days. There was a time when civil society discourse<br>
was actually civil. But any incivility I have committed<br>
is in response to behavior that does not and should not<br>
characterize civil society.<br>
<br>
So sala, thank you for your warning.<br>
<br>
--srs (htc one x)<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Guru गुरु" <Guru@ITforChange.net><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Guru@ITforChange.net" target="_blank">Guru@ITforChange.net</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><u></u>><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.<u></u>igcaucus.org</a>><br>
Subject: [governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website<br>
Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 10:51 PM<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://truth-out.org/news/item/12676-how-google-is-helping-the-gas-lobby-support-fracking" target="_blank">http://truth-out.org/news/<u></u>item/12676-how-google-is-<u></u>helping-the-gas-lobby-support-<u></u>fracking</a><br>
<br>
<br>
On Wednesday 21 November 2012 06:25 PM, Louis Pouzin<br>
(well) wrote:<br>
> Hi all,<br>
><br>
> Google is now champion for arrogance and<br>
disinformation. They believe<br>
> they reached a State statute whereby they can dictate<br>
other States<br>
> what they have to do. Actually this not so different<br>
from the US gov<br>
> attitude.<br>
><br>
> Google's dominance of the advertising market is in no<br>
way a guarantee<br>
> of quality and neutrality. They just leverage their<br>
dominance for<br>
> promoting their own business. And they conflate their<br>
particular<br>
> interests with grand ideologies as free information for<br>
all.<br>
><br>
> Let's assume that drugs are free for all. Then the web<br>
would be<br>
> swamped with ads for drugs, seminars praising benefits<br>
of using drugs,<br>
> training sessions for acquiring drug consumption art,<br>
testimonies from<br>
> drug users telling how it changed their life for the<br>
good, mass<br>
> campaign vilifying institutions or governments<br>
requesting drug<br>
> control, and so on. Just because the drug maffia has<br>
enough resources<br>
> for controlling a free market. And the saying is "the<br>
market is right".<br>
><br>
> As expected, the simple association of information and<br>
drug will<br>
> immediately raise fury. It's just taboo. Like<br>
associating Google<br>
> interests with freedom of information.<br>
><br>
> There was a time when the US gov would resist and break<br>
excessive and<br>
> abusive dominance in certain market segments, like oil,<br>
bank, telecom.<br>
> Now it's the opposite. Excessive market dominance is<br>
good for US world<br>
> dominance, as long as the dominant firms are based in<br>
the US. Then<br>
> where are check and balance mechanisms ?<br>
><br>
> Let's not be fooled by Google stylish propaganda. The<br>
real issues in<br>
> WCIT 2012 have nothing to do with internet censorship,<br>
and Google<br>
> knows it too well. The issues are finding a more<br>
equitable balance<br>
> between stakeholders interests and profits.<br>
><br>
> Parminder's observations are entirely relevant. The<br>
most dangerous<br>
> threats to information freedom are US lead secretly<br>
negotiated<br>
> treaties by multi-national lobbies, SOPA, ACTA, etc.<br>
More are coming,<br>
> still secret, basically a rehash of those that failed,<br>
TPP, CleanIT,<br>
> .. watch out.<br>
><br>
> Cheers, Louis<br>
> - - -<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:24 AM, parminder<br>
<<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.<u></u>net</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.<u></u>net</a>><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.<u></u>net</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wednesday 21 November 2012 01:19 PM, parminder<br>
wrote:<br>
>> snip<br>
><br>
>> Dear Google; Yes, the world indeed needs an open<br>
Internet, for<br>
>> which reason it is rather awful to note that you,<br>
meaning, Google;<br>
>><br>
>> 1) Sold the entire net neutrality campaign down<br>
the drain in the<br>
>> US, by first assuming its leadership and then<br>
entering into a<br>
>> self-serving agreement with Verizon, whereby the<br>
main means of<br>
>> accessing the Internet in the future - mobiles -<br>
are exempted<br>
>> from net neutrality provisions.<br>
>><br>
>> 2) Have recently entered into exclusive<br>
arrangements with telecos<br>
>> to provide Gmail, Google + and Google Search for<br>
free in some<br>
>> developing countries (Philippines) , and as a<br>
special low cost<br>
>> package exclusively of a few Internet services<br>
(and not the full,<br>
>> public Internet) in others (India), which makes a<br>
mockery of an<br>
>> open and net neutral Internet.<br>
><br>
> BTW, is it a mere coincidence these new mobile based<br>
> non-net-neutral services seem to have something to<br>
do with the<br>
> betraying compromise that Google made that is<br>
mentioned in point 1<br>
> above?<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> 3) Tweak your search results, which is<br>
increasingly the main way<br>
>> of accessing locations on the Internet, in<br>
non-transparent ways,<br>
>> with increasing evidence that this is done in a<br>
manner that<br>
>> merely serves your own commercial interests and<br>
goes against<br>
>> consumer/ public interest, and for which reasons<br>
Google is<br>
>> currently subject to regulatory investigations in<br>
the US and EU.<br>
>><br>
>> ( There are hundreds of other outrages, big and<br>
small, including<br>
>> the fact that today I suddenly see my default<br>
browser getting<br>
>> set for "Chrome' when I prefer and have always<br>
used Mozilla<br>
>> Firefox and never asked for the change of default.)<br>
>><br>
>> I cannot see anything other than effective<br>
regulation of the<br>
>> Internet to be able to check such excesses by<br>
Internet companies<br>
>> that are deeply compromising the openness of the<br>
Internet<br>
>> (sticking here to only to the subject of openness<br>
of the<br>
>> Internet, used in above appeal by Google).<br>
>><br>
>> So, lets be honest, it is not about people versus<br>
ITU, not even,<br>
>> Google versus ITU, or even Google versus content<br>
regulation; it<br>
>> is Google versus any regulation of the Internet<br>
space so that<br>
>> Google, and similarly positioned dominant players,<br>
can have a<br>
>> free run over the economic, social and political<br>
resources of the<br>
>> world.<br>
>><br>
>> It is very important to wage the needed struggles<br>
to keep<br>
>> In<br>
<br>
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