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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>To bring this back to the WCIT/ITU context, the issue isn't direct nastiness (illegality) via spam or whatever, there are in most instances enforceable national laws to cover this and the self-regulation is for the most part a way of keeping national regulators off the corporate backs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The issue is precisely in the area of standards and policies for those corporations and countries with global and transborder reach where national policies/regulations are essentially unenforceable but where because of industry or other dominance (including what is in practice standards "capture") there is no effective way of pursuing a public interest. My own example which I keep trundling out is a fairly direct indicator of some of the issues from a consumer protection perspective and I think a reasonable example where some sort of means for enforcing a global public interest including through transparency and accountabliity is required. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/gmail-hell-day-4-dealing-with-the-borg-or-being-evil-without-really-thinking-about-it/">http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/gmail-hell-day-4-dealing-with-the-borg-or-being-evil-without-really-thinking-about-it/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/gmail-hell2-an-epilogue-they-are-the-borg-and-they-are-too-big-to-be-allowed-to-fail/">http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/gmail-hell2-an-epilogue-they-are-the-borg-and-they-are-too-big-to-be-allowed-to-fail/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 17, 2012 8:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> <governance@lists.igcaucus.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones Went Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>As far as I have seen in industry associations like maawg (<a href="http://www.maawg.org">www.maawg.org</a>) there is a substantial push towards best practice in areas such as ethical email marketing that is respectful of user privacy, besides the various other practices evolved on security, malware etc. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And that best practice is, sort of, enforced in that marketers who don't adhere to that code of practice don't get to become members, or on previous occasions, have had ther membership revoked.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So, this does occur and is not unknown in an industry context.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It would be equally naive to only bank on industry goodwill, which is why a regulatory system, and a transparent complaints / redressal process are essential, That, and informed civil society that doesn't see industry as the enemy.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Note: I have had my share of arguments with various civil society people and groups on that account, simply because making points without demonising the groups they make those points against seems to be a dying art. Like Susan Crawford describing DPI with terms like "inside job", or the eff comparing spam filtering to blackmail and extortion. <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/silklist@lists.hserus.net/msg20400.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/silklist@lists.hserus.net/msg20400.html</a> for several such examples.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>--srs (iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 17-Nov-2012, at 21:45, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Of course, what you are saying is precisely what is being said in the<br>current deregulation push in US telecoms i.e. that corporate actors can be<br>trusted (in a deregulated context) to act in accordance with the public<br>interest (with the consequences that Susan Crawford is pointing to in her<br>piece noted bleow...<br><br>You might note in passing that CS in the context of the BestBits discussion<br>indicated in the context of the anticipated revision of the ITR's and a<br>requirement that " the framing of public policy is the pursuit of the<br>public interest" and that this statement was signed onto by numerous CS (and<br>other actors). <a href="http://bestbits.igf-online.net/statement/">http://bestbits.igf-online.net/statement/</a><br><br>M<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br>Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 7:41 AM<br>To: michael gurstein<br>Cc: <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones Went<br>Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg<br><br>There is no such thing as a global public interest, it is too utopian a<br>concept.<br><br>A shared consensus on best practices and acceptable standards of behaviour /<br>codes of conduct are about the closest you will have in real life and<br>outside wcit, igf etc slide decks.<br><br>--srs (iPad)<br><br>On 17-Nov-2012, at 20:48, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Why?<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>The discussions around the WCIT/are overrun with precisely those kinds <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>of generalizations.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>But it is a serious question, if we believe that there is a global <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>public interest (in the Internet) who do we trust to best represent <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>that public interest (IBM, Google, the USG?) and within what (global) <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>framework will that representation best take place (the market place, <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>the US State Department, Google, the IGF?). (Unfortunately, I don't <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>see CS as sufficiently strong or as sufficiently independent to even <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>mention it in this context.)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>M<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net">mailto:suresh@hserus.net</a>]<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:39 AM<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; michael gurstein<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Went Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>michael gurstein [17/11/12 06:00 -0800]:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Who can we rely on to act in support of the (global) public <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>interest--IBM, Google, Facebook, AT&T, the USG, "the market"..?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>"civil society"? also note "act effectively"<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Generalizing would be a grave mistake here.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>