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Representative fora are essentially zero sum games (my time taken
for representation undermines others speaking time or what have
you), which is not to say they do not have a role to play in
generating legitimacy, dialogue and consultation... but these are
distinct from deliberative fora wherein
reason/power/argument/evidence etc are used to get at a decision...
methinks that one of the issues is that representivity is conflated
with deliberation... <br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012/10/27 12:59 PM, Baudouin
Schombe wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAPcSPKWkQ7T1kA2M40xO7ip_L1GjtKZyz8Tcd5etVSXmjLN7-w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><span id="result_box" class="" lang="en"><span
class="hps">Let</span> <span class="hps">us agree</span> <span
class="hps">in</span> <span class="hps">the different
approaches</span><span>:</span><br>
<span class="hps atn">-</span><span class="">the</span> <span
class="hps">multi-stakeholder</span> <span class="hps">approach</span>
<span class="hps">is the formula that</span> <span class="hps">has
been and</span> <span class="hps">is regularly</span> <span
class="hps">required</span> <span class="hps">in almost</span>
<span class="hps">all processes</span> <span class="hps">of
representation</span> <span class="hps">or</span> <span
class="hps">decision</span><span class="">;</span><br>
<span class="hps atn">-</span><span>if we</span> <span
class="hps">consider the</span> <span class="hps">democratic
dimension of the</span> <span class="hps">multi-stakeholder</span>
<span class="hps">approach</span><span>,</span> <span
class="hps">it is necessary to</span> <span class="hps">define
a procedure</span> <span class="hps">for every</span> <span
class="hps">country</span><span class="">, every</span> <span
class="hps">community or</span> <span class="hps">different
actors involved in</span> <span class="hps">the topic</span>
<span class="hps">or issue;</span><br>
<span class="hps atn">-</span><span>when</span> <span
class="hps">we accept</span> <span class="hps">and agree to</span>
<span class="hps">the procedure</span><span>, there is</span> <span
class="hps">of course</span> <span class="hps">in</span> <span
class="hps">terms of</span> <span class="hps">lobbyist</span>
<span class="hps">becomes</span> <span class="hps">legislator</span>
<span class="hps">it will</span> <span class="hps">also set the</span>
<span class="hps">rules and</span> <span class="hps">the
profile of the</span> <span class="hps">person or persons</span>
<span class="hps">need</span><span class="">.<br>
<br>
Baudouin<br>
</span></span><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/26 Norbert Klein <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nhklein@gmx.net"
target="_blank">nhklein@gmx.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="im">
<div>On 10/24/2012 9:12 AM, Paul Lehto wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">The subject line says it most
succinctly: In Multistakeholderism, those who would be
Lobbyists become Legislators, & nobody else has a
vote. <br>
<br>
In a democracy, it is a scandal that lobbyists have so
much influence that they even write the drafts of laws.
But in multistakeholder situations they take that
scandal to a whole new level: those who would be
lobbyists in a democracy (corporations, experts, civil
society) become the legislators themselves, </blockquote>
<br>
</div>
No. <br>
<br>
There is not only ONE stakeholder who becomes THE legislator
- but there are MULTI stakeholders. In the absence and
impossibility of taking universal votes on IG issues, I am
not surprised about - and I share - the opinion of many that
multi-stakeholder systems are the most practical ones that
avoid that ONE stakeholder decides everything, and gives
many opinions access to public discussion, even while
decisions are organized not as a result of a vote in a
multi-stakeholder forum.<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Norbert Klein<br>
Phnom Penh/Cambodia <br>
</font></span>
<div class="im"> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">and dispense with all public
elections and not only write the laws but pass them,
enforce them, and in some cases even set up courts of
arbitration that are usually conditioned on waiving the
right to go to the court system set up by democracies.<br>
<br>
A vote is just a minimum requirement of justice. Without
a vote, law is just force inflicted by the wealthy and
powerful. Multistakeholderism is a coup d'etat against
democracy by those who would merely be lobbyists in a
democratic system. So yes, I think it is misleading at
best to use the word "democratic" in reference to
multistakeholder systems.<br>
<br>
Paul R. Lehto, J.D.
<div>-- <br>
</div>
Paul R Lehto, J.D.<br>
P.O. Box 1 <br>
Ishpeming, MI 49849 <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com" target="_blank">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a><br>
906-204-4965 (cell)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN<br>
CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/<br>
ACADEMIE DES TIC<br>
FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre<br>
At-Large Member<br>
NCSG Member<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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