On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Jeremy Malcolm <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeremy@ciroap.org" target="_blank">jeremy@ciroap.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="im"><div><div>On 27/10/2012, at 1:02 AM, Paul Lehto <<a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com" target="_blank">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>The critical - and illegitimate - move in the above is to redefine democratically elected representatives as merely ONE stakeholder among many. This radically demotes the only legitimate form of governance - those that derive their authority from the consent of the governed via elections - to just one voice among many (undemocratic) voices. <br>
</div></div><div><br></div></div><div>So governments are the only legitimate stakeholders in Internet governance? I don't think you can just wave away the practical problems with this - the democratic deficits in all intergovernmental bodies, and the fact that there are transnational (border-crossing) interests that governments have no democratic mandate to take into account - so even in theory, they are not adequate representatives of the public interest.</div>
<span style></span></div></blockquote><div><br>Jeremy just answer the question: What gives any individual or group the right to force other people to do their will by calling it "law"? Without this legitimacy, law is just force expressed by the powerful against the powerless. <br>
<br>Does inheriting a throne confer legitimacy? Being annointed by God? Historically, through modern times, it's been considered very important to establish legitimacy of rule, so much so that royal bloodlines or myths were created in order to establish the right to rule. These are historically discredited in the vast majority of areas of the world, including those that feature ceremonial monarchs. The only method of obtaining legitimacy that has any significant appeal over a broad area is that of democracy, where the right to rule is derived from the consent of the governed via elections. <br>
<br>Not being legitimate in the authority to rule is a huge practical problem. Why should anyone listen to or obey the rules of outfits lacking democratic legitimacy? Because they are enforced at the point of a gun, ultimately? That's rule through intimidation, and it doesn't help much if the rules are arguably wise if they are simply the product of force.<br>
<br>On the other hand, if after a fair process of elections, either direct or through representatives, a result has been reached, the losing minority has participated and had its chance and must abide by the result and its enforcement.<br>
<br>Question back to you Jeremy: What gives you, or any MS governance outfit, the right to force other people to do your will? If you can't trace your authority back to some election (e.g. being appointed by elected legislators, etc), then the public power you purport to exercise is illegitimate. <br>
<br>No matter how weak, or strong, one considers the democratic monopoly on legitimacy to be, all other claims to legitimacy are significantly more fragile, much more questionable. If the claim is based on wisdom or expertise, why not make following the rules derived from that policy totally voluntary and based on persuasion of others and at all on enforced rules or standards?<br>
<br>Paul Lehto, J.D.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style></span><br style><div><span style="border-spacing:0px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-spacing:0px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-spacing:0px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<p style="font-size:9pt"><b>Dr Jeremy Malcolm<br>Senior Policy Officer<br>Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers</b><br>Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East<br>Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B60%203%207726%201599" value="+60377261599" target="_blank">+60 3 7726 1599</a></p><p style="font-size:9pt"><b>Your rights, our mission – download CI's Strategy 2015:</b> <a href="http://consint.info/RightsMission" target="_blank">http://consint.info/RightsMission</a></p>
<p style="font-size:9pt">@Consumers_Int | <a href="http://www.consumersinternational.org/" target="_blank">www.consumersinternational.org</a> | <a href="http://www.facebook.com/consumersinternational" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/consumersinternational</a></p>
<p style="color:rgb(153,153,153);font-size:8pt">Read our <a href="http://www.consumersinternational.org/email-confidentiality" target="_blank">email confidentiality notice</a>. Don't print this email unless necessary.</p>
</div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span>
</div>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul R Lehto, J.D.<br>P.O. Box 1 <br>Ishpeming, MI 49849 <br><a href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com" target="_blank">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a><br>906-204-4965 (cell)<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br>